Summorum Pontificum: Brief Reflections on Its Seventh Anniversary

by William H. Johnston

Today, July 7, 2014, marks the seventh anniversary of the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum (SP) and its accompanying Letter to Bishops. The anniversary is still worth noting, for though Benedict XVI is gone and succeeded by a pope with different liturgical sensibilities and largely non-liturgical priorities, the extraordinary form (EF) remains a constitutive element of the Roman Rite, and to understand – and explain, teach, canonically interpret, and pastorally practice – that Rite in its fullness still requires understanding SP and the EF.

This can be challenging. SP has aroused strongly negative and positive reactions – but sometimes by finding in or drawing from the document more I think than it says or intends. In many ways it is not as bad as some critics contend (“Wrong in so many ways… where to begin…!”), nor does it imply what some supporters may wish (“Finally, the ammo we need…!”).

For example, it would be a misunderstanding to attribute to SP or Pope Benedict what one wing of TLM supporters want. Even if a small group of intransigent Vatican II opponents take SP as encouragement in their opposition, it would be mistaken to attribute such intransigence or opposition to SP itself or its author, who supports the council and affirms its reformed liturgy (see, e.g., his other major liturgical document of 2007, Sacramentum caritatis, described recently on another Pray Tell blog post as “a very beautiful and very VII document”).

What can we say, then, of SP? As a reminder, here are seven short theses – basic points of orientation.

  1. SP does not displace or diminish the postconciliar reformed liturgy which remains, by clear intent and design (and naming it the “ordinary form”), the ordinary liturgy Catholics celebrate as a matter of course.
  2. SP does give the 1962 Missal new standing as a structural component of the Roman Rite, its “extraordinary form”; it is now legally established, though secondary or subsidiary to the OF.
  3. SP does not assert or assume the priority or superiority of, or otherwise preference, the EF over the OF in the church’s liturgical life.
  4. SP does call on Catholics today to respect the EF “on account of its venerable and ancient usage” (SP, Art. 1).
  5. SP imposes the EF on no one. Catholics wishing to have nothing to do with it need never celebrate it (with the exception of clergy called upon to provide EF celebrations).
  6. SP does authorize, for Catholics who desire it and take steps to seek it out, a wider-than-before yet still restricted access to the EF.
  7. SP subjects each form, in its ritual elements or manner of celebration (ars celebrandi), to the influence of the other form. Though little has happened in seven short years, SP intends the EF to change, as also the OF. How much change results from their “mutually enriching” influence, whether much or little, of what kind, in which direction, is not predetermined by SP, and depends first of all on members of the church who celebrate the liturgy in each/both form(s) and what they discern to be desirable – thus enacting a kind of “grass roots” liturgical theology and process of ritual reform.

What SP wants above all is “internal reconciliation in the heart of the church” (Letter, paragraph 8). I think this worthy aim is best served by a reading of both documents (SP and the Letter) that is appreciative wherever possible, while critical when necessary. To borrow a hopeful phrase on the topic from Kathy Hughes’ 2010 NPM annual convention keynote address: “let a thousand flowers bloom” is a generous and healthy approach.

This interpretive method aids in understanding the documents as their author intended and makes more likely that “more fruitful dialogue” the council encouraged, conducted with mutual esteem, reverence, harmony, and charity (Gaudium et spes, no. 92). It is this kind of reading (appreciative, critical, constructive) I attempt and develop in Care for the Church and Its Liturgy (Liturgical Press, 2013), hoping it brings some clarity in interpretation and equanimity in discussion to the sometimes turbulent waters of debate on the extraordinary form.

I cannot help thinking this an important task because, again, anyone who explains, teaches, canonically interprets or pastorally implements the Roman Rite needs to understand SP and the EF with as much clarity and little misunderstanding as possible. Many questions arise here that the book tries to address, but let me conclude with one final thought. I’ve wondered what response to SP and its EF would most likely foster whatever positive potential it may contain. Active opposition, arguing against its premise and provisions? Silence, hoping it fades of its own accord? Genuine, measured support for the real, carefully designed and limited place and function of the EF in the church’s liturgy? With hope, I propose the third as a possible approach that can serve the church and its liturgy going forward.

 

William H. Johnston is currently an Associate Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Dayton. Before that, he spent twenty-seven years in parish and diocesan ministry. He holds three degrees from Notre Dame, with studies in church history and liturgy.

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Comments

141 responses to “Summorum Pontificum: Brief Reflections on Its Seventh Anniversary”

  1. Scott Pluff

    Through SP, the church has reached out to traditionally-minded Catholics with a ritual fitting their spiritual needs. If we have opened the door to two forms of one rite, and now a third variation for the Anglicans, here’s a suggestion for another. Let’s reach out to progressively-minded Catholics with a ritual based on the 1998 sacramentary with permissions for lay preaching, inclusive language, and broader allowance for inculturation and creativity within the ritual.

    1. @Scott Pluff – comment #1:
      Makes sense to me. That’s the kind of mutual enrichment a lot of people can support.

    2. Tim Sharrock

      @Scott Pluff – comment #1:
      Yes please

  2. Peter Kwasniewski

    “SP does authorize, for Catholics who desire it and take steps to seek it out, a wider-than-before yet still restricted access to the EF.”

    Where do you get “still restricted access”? John Paul II was already saying that the old Mass should be made “generously available” to those who desired it, and SP lifted all restrictions on priests who wish to celebrate it or faithful who wish to participate in it. The follow-up instruction Universae Ecclesiae, contrary to the expectations of many before its release, deliberately refused to stipulate a minimum number of Catholics who would constitute a “coetus fidelium” or group of the faithful. The only limitations are practical and prudential in nature.

    This post, like so many others, sounds like someone rather anxious and nervous about the increasing availability of the traditional Roman Rite — the Mass of St. John XXIII — who is trying to do “damage control.” Stop trying; the EF is here and here to stay, so it would be better to make peace and welcome the traditionalists as part of the wider Catholic world.

  3. What a silly idea.

    1. Scott Pluff

      @Ben Yanke – comment #4:
      Many would say SP is “silly,” but how would this be any different? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!

  4. It’s not an idea I favor (one English translation is enough for me, thank you very much; now let’s just get a good one), but it’s hardly silly.

  5. Tony Phillips

    The key point is ‘internal reconciliation in the heart of the church.’ For those of us who have remained Catholics in spite of the liturgy, SP came as an act of charity.

    As for comment 1, I have no problem with those who really want the 1998 (mis)translation of Paul VI’s mass–nothing wrong with diversity–but it shouldn’t be foisted on the rest of the church. It’s a tiny sliver of people in the pews that want that sort of thing. Heaven forbid they should be treated as badly as traditionalists were prior to SP.

    It’s hard for a pope to publicly admit that one of his predecessors made a mistake, but Benedict came as close as one might expect to doing so with regard to the disastrous pontificate of Paul VI.

    1. Scott Pluff

      @Tony Phillips – comment #7:
      I suspect that many people would be drawn to a more progressive/modern adaptation of the liturgy–the kind of liturgical practice that might have developed without the R2 countermovement of the past 10+ years. If the traditionalists found a sympathetic ear with Benedict, might not the liturgical progressives find the same with Francis? Both in the name of reconciling groups to the Church with different preferences for worship? I’m not being facetious.

    2. @Tony Phillips – comment #8:
      Funny thing is: more people want MR2 than MR’62. You sure you got that disastrous pontificate right? Take a poll on which of those two popes is more closely associated with disaster, you might get an unpleasant result.

  6. Peter Haydon

    It rained this weekend and I hoped for sunshine. The garden needed the rain.
    Liturgy needs to be treated seriously and SP helps in the ways indicated. Of course those capable of insults only will learn little. The rest of us will gain in ways that we probably would not have expected and might not have wished for.
    I just wish it would rain between 9 am and 11.30 am while I am stuck in the office and not spoil the w/e…..

  7. Brendan Kelleher SVD

    Anybody who fails to appreciate the contribution that Paul VI made to the Church doesn’t know his history. As to SP, from talks and I’ve had with Bishops, priests and laity from Asia, Africa and Latin America, there is no great groundswell of support for SP and all it stands for.

  8. Sean Whelan

    As the comments here prove, it’s time for SP to go. Enough cow towing to these small fringe groups.

    1. @Sean Whelan – comment #13:
      Yes. They have enough cows already. It’s like coals to White Castle.

      1. Sean Whelan

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #14:

        I do not understand auto-correct on my phone….

      2. Reyanna Rice

        @Sean Whelan – comment #16:
        Just know that you are in good company. I would swear on a stack of bibles that I have typed correctly on my smart phone and android tablet to find it then be something entirely not my doing. I think the things are possessed and I am unsure of the existence of the devil…

        I do agree with your comments.

      3. @Sean Whelan – comment #16:
        Ah… nobody really understands the mysteries of autocorrect.

  9. Regarding the comments here and elsewhere, a thought: the traditional role of the Bishop of Rome has been, in addition to a guarantee of orthodoxy under persecution, as an agent of unity. Is the role of a pope to “cow tow” to fringe groups, or to bring the various groups together?

    I’m not saying that bringing together the entire Catholic spectrum from those dissatisfied with Vatican II to those who want to seriously push the liturgical envelope will be simple or easy. But we can make judgments on the effectiveness of popes themselves and their actions in light of their larger role. SP was a papal document. Did it accomplish what is within the primary ministry of Rome? Or did it hinder it?

  10. Graham Wilson

    Scott Pluff : Let’s reach out to progressively-minded Catholics with a ritual based on the 1998 sacramentary with permissions for lay preaching, inclusive language, and broader allowance for inculturation and creativity within the ritual.

    +1. Benedict unlocked the door to liturgical plurality. Let’s open it.

  11. Bill Johnston

    To carry the conversation further, would anyone please say more about why “it’s time for SP to go” (comment #13).

    Any remarks could be helpful. But here are three possible approaches.

    Which of the seven theses regarding SP listed in the initial article is a bad idea and needs to go?

    Or: How would the people of the church benefit from removal of the EF? That is, how are they disadvantaged by its existence (esp. in view of the 5th thesis)?

    Or: Is the underlying issue that SP is interpreted as (see comment #13) “cow towing” to “small fringe groups” (i.e., as I understand it: to a relatively small number of people who want the wrong liturgical things)? Giving it some thought, this question came to mind.

    In Rita Ferrone’s encouraging article (“The Vision of Pope Francis for the Church”), she speaks of Francis defending SP – as “a pastoral gesture of accommodation.” This raises the question: is SP better understood as “cow towing” which should not be tolerated, or as “a pastoral gesture of accommodation” which can be tolerated?

    The latter makes more sense to me. Here are three reasons. I think Benedict’s appeal that we “make space for all that the faith itself allows” (Letter, no. 8) is sound, and SP comes within the scope of that appeal. I think it wouldn’t be a bad thing if the liturgy-as-celebrated showed a certain greater measure of (the right words are hard to find…) something like what Benedict called “sacrality” and Kavanagh “the humane enterprise of ritual formality,” and SP opens that door a bit. I think (this comes straight from Benedict) that if those on the ecclesial & liturgical fringe are brought into the wider church, they can be positively influenced and broadened by that contact; again, SP opens that door a bit.

    But if it’s better to see SP as “cow towing” not to be tolerated (“it’s time for SP to go”), closing the doors to those persons, what are the reasons? Which thesis is bad? Who is disadvantaged?

    1. @Bill Johnston – comment #20:
      “Who is disadvantaged?”

      Other people who have legitimate claims and needs, but who are ignored and marginalized. The problem isn’t with SP 2007. Taking it to a logical conclusion, the problem is that we don’t have more of these.

  12. Philip Sandstrom

    I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the obvious ‘squaring the circle’ undertaken by the SP with the impossible task of trying to allow different two ecclesiologies, two lectionaries, and two calendars to exist at the same time for the same Rite and ‘saying somehow they are the same’. This is not the same process as the history of the origins of the Russian ‘Old Believers’ and ‘Old Calendarists’. It is something quite different because it is intentionally trying to solve a profound problem by denying that it exists.

    1. Rita Ferrone Avatar
      Rita Ferrone

      @Philip Sandstrom – comment #21:
      Phil has hit the nail on the head. I am afraid we have been so well conditioned culturally by shallow celebrations of “choice” and “diversity” that we accept “squaring the circle” in a single liturgical rite as a new and welcome instance of the same.

      1. Jordan DeJonge

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #21:

        “I am afraid we have been so well conditioned culturally by shallow celebrations of “choice” and “diversity”…”

        I’m sorry, but that’s a little bit rich coming from liturgical progressives. This is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone on Praytell put those buzzwords in scare quotes.

        How much that is new has already been welcomed in the name of “options” that “enrich” us with the “diverse” “expressions” of the “people of God”– oh, but certainly not the old, that would be the symptom of a shallow culture of “choice” and “diversity.”…

      2. Rita Ferrone Avatar
        Rita Ferrone

        @Jordan DeJonge – comment #33:
        Yes, the case against SP is a conservative case. Sorry it irks you, but you don’t hold the copyright on criticisms of this sort and I have no apology to make. The move to claim that the return of the older rites was a matter of “diversity” was made far before I mentioned it, when in order to sell the older rites, then-cardinal Ratzinger had to resort to an appeal to diversity, which was only a tool of expediency. There was never any real commitment to diversity, just a desire to gain a foothold for the older rites. I’m surprised so many are fooled by it and would even trouble to suggest that the favor might extend both ways. That was never considered, because the “diversity” argument was always a sham.

      3. Jordan DeJonge

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #44:

        Oh it certainly is a sham, I agree, although your rhetorically conservative posture is no less so. One side calling out the other is tantamount to calling out both.

        Just as love for the traditional rite is only sensible if it implies, in some measure, the imperialism (and singular direction) of a “mutual enrichment,” so has the progressive valorization of “options galore” and “diversity” been a type of trojan horse for a preferred and somewhat novel theology that conceals its own homogenizing tendency. If one group cannot hide behind their language, neither should the other be allowed to do so.

        I am glad you are raising the problem of the possible vacuity of choice and diversity and hinting that the goodness of pluralism and choice are subordinate to a criteria higher than both. I don’t think this problem has been sufficiently treated in light of certain failures of the post-conciliar vision.

      4. Rita Ferrone Avatar
        Rita Ferrone

        @Jordan DeJonge – comment #51:
        I am not shamming or indulging in rhetoric. I meant what I said.

  13. Philip Sandstrom

    By the way, please excuse a small bit of pedantry. The Chinese custom and word is “kow-tow” not “cow-tow”. (I checked in the OED). I do think in proper reaction to SP, it is an un-necessary bit of ritual gesture.

  14. Patrick Logsdon

    I think there are two aspects of SP that need more attention. One is “graciousness” as an act of and the fruit of an inner reconciliation in the church.
    Why can’t there be some accommodation for the traditional ancient rite of the church to those who have a deep love for it? How is the church going get past this anger, division, and animosity over this? Usually by one side finally listening to the other, then an act of generosity follows and mutual growth can take place.

    If this can be made, then SP suggests that mutual enrichment will follow. And this means that not just the OF will learn, but as Benedict mentions, the EF will also learn. (readings in the vernacular, appreciation for the new prefaces etc.)

    Unfortunately this call has not been heard or the dynamic understood. Animosity and distrust grow, people get more and more frozen in ideologies and communication boils down to worn out clichés and name-calling.

    Also SP was in the wider context of healing the ecclesial division with the Society of St Pius X.
    Their leaders gave two demands before they would meet to discuss, one was the lifting of the excommunications of their bishops and the second was universal access to the Latin rite. Benedict granted those demands, but when the time for talking came, it seems they were so frozen in their ideologies they could not accept the teaching of the council. And this should be a warning to all of us, get stuck in your ideologies at your own peril.

  15. Sean Whelan

    Neither priest from my diocese who offer the Old Mass experienced the pre-Vatican II Church. Heck, one is in his mid-20s. Yet here they are, cultivating more followers, often young folk, with the Old Mass. Ludicrous.

    It’s one thing if this was truly helping people who had difficulty after the reforms, but we’re 50 years past that moment now. That a 26 year old is ordained and immediately sets out offering the Old Mass is absurd.

    One need only go so far as other blogs and sites to see which “side” produces great vitriol.

    1. Henry Edwards

      @Sean Whelan – comment #26:

      In my observation in a number of EF communities, those who were youth at the time of Vatican II are largely uninterested in the EF. Rather, of all age groups, it is the youth of today–including an apparent majority of current seminarians–who have the greatest enthusiasm for the EF. They evidently see themselves as looking to the future rather than to the past.

  16. Alan Johnson

    Most of us who are old enough to have first hand daily experience of EF have no desire to revisit it. I would agree that it is those who have the shortest experience of it that seem to want it most. Novelty always has is attractions.
    Apart from that, I wholeheartedly welcome a la carte Catholicism. Good to see that Benedict learned something from his contacts with Anglicans …. viz, that different flavours of churchmanship can happily co-exist within the one organisation.
    Now how about a break for those of us who would like to worship in our native tongue.

  17. Jim McKay

    Ironies abound in this discussion. When SP proposed the existence of two forms within one rite it made an implicit assertion that the two forms were “dynamic equivalents.” At the same time, another arm of the Vatican was pushing for more “formal equivalents” within the OF. Why would a translation have to strictly translate forms when other more different forms are allowed?

    SP was offered to separate the EF from opponents of VII. It clarified that SSPX was not about the older missal, but about rejecting VII. Conversations within the Church have changed, and should change more, as a sense of accepting VII grows. This is how unity is effected by SP.

    Interest among some young people (a pretty small group of them) may reflect some adolescent rebellion, not too unusual of a phenomenon. His can certainly develop out of that phase, into a sincere appreciation and deeper faith, but it is ironic that such a hierarchical system should depend on an anarchic impulse.

  18. Stanislaus Kosala

    Summorum Pontificum creates an interesting twist in the story of the post-Vatican II church in that without celebrations of the EF, the younger generation would only have the prepackaged narrative of those responsible for the changes to go off of. (e.g. “the old Latin mass was so awful,” “the new mass is infinitely better in every respect,” “the reforms brought only good”). Whereas now, it’s possible for people to look at the pre-reformed liturgy and evaluate that narrative for themselves.

    It amaze me how threatened people can be simply by the fact that it’s now possible to look at the pre-reformed rite, and the reformed rite side by side, and not have to simply buy into what standard texts say. While very very few people look at the reform and think that it was a mistake and should be undone, a significant growing number take a look at the two forms, and can’t shake the feeling that while the reform was overall an improvement, maybe something important was also lost.

  19. SP came about the summer before I was ordained. I took a slight interest in learning the EF at that time simply because the Pope seemed to be asking me to. The opportunity to learn never really worked out and it wasn’t a priority. This past winter I finally got around to learning the EF. I celebrate it off and on now. Here are few thoughts:

    1) My biggest “problem” right now with the EF is the calendar. If the EF and OF are truly going to be 2 “forms” of the same rite then I feel like we have to harmonize the two calendars.

    2) As far as young people being attracted to the EF, I too was against this idea when we were living under the ED indult. My thinking on this simply had to change with SP and, quite frankly, with my experience of the young people (priests included) who are attracted to the EF.

    3) With regard to other “forms” for progressives etc. I think Pope Benedict was doing more than simply accommodating the different wishes of people. I think he saw the loss of a 1500 year tradition as a problem. There was no one clamoring for the return of the papal fanon, and yet Benedict seemed to not want to let it be lost, odd as that might be. I don’t think you can equate the centuries old tradition of the EF with the not even approved 1998 translation of the new missal. It’s deeper than just people who might want to worship a certain way.

    4) Speaking of what people want, if that plays a role, then we shouldn’t be asking the 30% that go to Mass so much as finding out why 70% left.

    5) Finally, if you’re worried about young priests learning the EF…look out. Seminaries are now requiring the men to learn both forms…and it’s popular. Judging by my experience, I’m going to be considered a radical liberal before long. I clearly have insufficient lace on my surplice and I can’t even go to Evening Prayer without needing a biretta. My guess is that the EF is only going to become more popular as more priests are able to celebrate it. The Spirit blows where it wills.

    1. @Fr. Shawn P. Tunink – comment #31:
      3. I’d say that the modern Roman Rite has a 2000 year pedigree, and that the TLM, as currently constituted only has 400-year-old legs. What gives there? Additionally, the 1998 Missal was approved by the world’s English-speaking bishops after a long consultation.

      4. Are you sure you want to go there? Because a good chunk of the 70% were ticked off about Humanae Vitae. Are you seriously suggesting that popularity is the proper gauge?

    2. Philip Sandstrom

      @Fr. Shawn P. Tunink – comment #31:
      You mention only the problems with having two calendars. I wonder, do you not see the real problems with having two different ecclesiologies? and two different lectionaries? Not to speak of using Latin only, as opposed to the local spoken language of the worshipping congregation and the other celebrants? I well remember celebrating the Mass before the Council and also since the Council’s reforms and rearrangements of the fossilized (for 400 years) liturgy published under Pope St. Pius V. The Renewed Liturgy is a fresh breath of the Spirit let out of the confines of the Tridentine fossilization. SC #10: “Liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the church is directed; it is also the source from which all its power flows.” not only has meaning in general, but it also has huge implications for its celebration to fulfill that announced purpose. The whole spirituality of the Church is at stake here.

      1. @Philip Sandstrom – comment #42:
        I know I’ve gone around on this with Fr. Anthony before, but I really don’t buy the idea that the EF and OF have different ecclesiologies. The Mass as it was celebrated in 1962 was the product of many centuries of development and to think that elements coming from the 6th century enshrine the same ecclesiology as elements coming from the 16th seems to me quite ahistorical and implausible. (I’d also note, however, that you and Matthew Hazell seem to be in agreement here.)

        While those who prefer the EF might tend to have a different ecclesiology from those who prefer the OF (I’m not convinced that they do; we’d have to ask them and find out), the rites themselves don’t have ecclesiologies.

        They do, however, have different calendars and lectionaries, and that’s something of a problem if people want to claim that they are two forms of the same Rite.

      2. Patrick Logsdon

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #46:
        I agree that all this talk about different ecclesiologies can be a dead end.
        Since the 1980’s Avery Dulles has given us a good way to discuss this with his models of the church/ecclesiologies. This brings more balance and gets us away from the black or white rut that we have been stuck in for so long.

        In regards to the problem of different lectionaries, calendars, etc perhaps
        SP is an example of what Pope Francis said about not being afraid of going out and create a mess……all this will work its way out, pretty much the way the church has done it all along. only the control freaks and ideologues are disappointed!

      3. Sean Whelan

        @Patrick Logsdon – comment #49:

        This was not the “mess” Francis spoke about. Not by a long shot.

      4. Patrick Logsdon

        @Sean Whelan – comment #50:
        i know that Sean! i was talking about the principle involved in what he was saying. sorry i did not make it clear.

      5. @Fritz Bauerschmidt (#46): For the record, ecclesiology is not actually one of the areas where I see differences between the OF and EF, largely due to the same sorts of reasons you mention.

      6. Scott Smith

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #46:

        +1.

        If the ecclesiologies of the OF and EF are so different, so much that one must be supressed as in error, we have bigger issues than just SP.

      7. Philip Sandstrom

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #46:
        I do think there are different ecclesiologies involved. If it were nothing but the difference of only the ‘servers/acolytes’ answering the priest as opposed to the whole congregation participating (as was true also in Saint Justin Martyr’s descriptions) — there is now an underlying expectation of not only the possibility but also the real expectation of congregational vocal participation. Celebrating ‘versus populum’ presumes a ‘communal celebratory participation’; the simplification of the gestures of the priest throughout, but especially during the Eucharistic Prayer are an advance in that direction too. The change of perspective during the ‘words of Institution/consecration’ (as well as the textual changes) along with the rubrical changes concerning the now un-necessary ‘elevations’ over the head of the priest also ‘change’ the balance of understanding too — this is added to with the ‘celebratory double elevation of the elements’ during the normatively chanted doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer (something again referred to, I believe, in Justin Martyr’s description, for example). [This also is a consequence of understanding the whole EP as consecratory rather than the 12/13th century on the “operative formula” which produced the ‘elevations’]. The readings being done facing the congregation in the local vernacular (and with mikes etc) also change the evident sensibility about ‘what is going on here’. All these examples are evidences of two different understandings (ecclesiologically basic, which were fossilized in the Tridentine-style usage.) Again, the emphasis (often unfortunately still obeyed in the breach) on sharing the Eucharist under both kinds from elements consecrated at the same Mass they are consumed at — is certainly another and powerful example of this ecclesiological change of balance among the parts and what is understood by those taking part (and even by those simply ‘observing’). Lastly, not seen or heard because they are silent prayers on the part of the priest is their general suppression in the post Vatican II usage — the priest is no longer ‘separated from distractions’ of the choir’s music or the congregation’s rumblings. It is expected that they and he are all taking useful part in the common celebration of the Mass — again a rather large ecclesiological re-jiggering of understanding.

      8. Bill deHaas

        @Philip Sandstrom – comment #54:
        Thank you – found Deacon’s comment to be surprising. Would add that both the ecclesiology and the sacramental theology changed (were reformed) by Vatican II (and we need to be careful about confusing Dulles’ *models* with *ecclesiology*).
        Bill Johnston’s post and his follow up comment listing 7 SP points are interesting but, IMO, feels like he is starting in *media res*. Some context and background information to complete this picture:
        – SP is Benedict’s *motu proprio* – one of the lowest ranked papal documents (as some have posited, was this driven by SSPX? That justification no longer exists)
        – Per VII, Benedict did not accept nor did he try to implement VII’s collegiality and his use of papal primacy in this issue ignored other papal encyclicals that called for dialogue. Dialogue seeks *unity* but this can not be achieved by coercion, argument, or ultimatums. (IMO, Benedict’s motu proprio rejected over 90% of what conferences and bishops encouraged and thus became a unilateral decision (some comment about *merciful* but we have to concede that SP has created unintended consequences. It also did not allow for episcopal conferences to speak forthrightly when they believed the *way* Roman authority was being exercised was excessive which is also part of our history and tradition (e.g. Easter on Sunday issue)
        – some cite SP as an example of diversity (examples of religious order rites; Eastern liturgies but these examples dismiss differences – religious order rites had to meet certain criteria and their rites accepted the Trentan ecclesiology and sacramental theology; some comment about versus populum and Eastern church while missing the reality that the Eastern half’s ecclesiology and Eucharistic theology are very different from the Western Rite)
        – see lots of inaccuracies about the 1962 Mass (as if it has been around for 1500 years). The difference between reforms prior to and including VII and today’s more or less anti-reform…

      9. Philip Sandstrom

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #46:
        I do think there are different ecclesiologies involved. If it were nothing but the difference of only the ‘servers/acolytes’ answering the priest as opposed to the whole congregation participating (as was true also in Saint Justin Martyr’s descriptions) — there is underlying not only the possibility but also the real expectation of congregational vocal participation. Celebrating ‘versus populum’ presumes a ‘communal celebratory participation’; the simplification of the gestures of the priest throughout, but especially during the Eucharistic Prayer are an advance in that direction too. The change of perspective during the ‘words of Institution/consecration’ (as well as the textual changes) along with the rubrical changes concerning the now un-necessary ‘elevations’ over the head of the priest also ‘change’ the balance of understanding too — this is added to with the ‘celebratory double elevation of the elements’ during the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer (something again referred to, I believe, in Justin Martyr’s description, for example. [This also is a consequence of understanding the whole EP as consecratory rather than the 12/13th century on the “operative formula” which produced the ‘elevations’. The readings being done facing the congregation (and with mikes etc) also change the evident sensibility about ‘what is going on here’. All these examples are evidences of two different understandings (ecclesiological underpinnings) of the celebration of the Eucharist. Again, the emphasis (often unfortunately still obeyed in the breach) on sharing the Eucharist under both kinds from elements consecrated at the same Mass they are consumed at — is certainly another and powerful example of this ecclesiological change of balance among the parts and what is understood by those taking part (and even by those simply ‘observing’).

      10. @Philip Sandstrom – comment #56:
        Aren’t at least some of these things “accidental” to the EF? To my knowledge, there is no requirement that only the servers answer (in fact, at the few EF celebrations I’ve been to at least a substantial portion of the congregation has sung/said the responses). Likewise, the EF can be (and was) celebrated facing the people and the OF can be (and is — even by Pope Francis) celebrated facing away for the people. My main point, however, is that rites don’t have ecclesiologies, people do.

      11. Philip Sandstrom

        @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #87:
        It is true that there is no rubric restricting the responses to the priest to the servers only — BUT the ‘Dialogue Mass’ (where the congregation does respond) was only ‘invented’ in German-speaking countries during the First World War and was thought to be radical, modernist, and very questionable when done in very specialized circumstances (such as ‘retreats’ at least at first) with Romano Guardini, the monks of Maria Laach, Pius Parsch. It was not common in the States till after World War II — except maybe at St. John’s Abbey. In fact one of the main purposes of male altar servers only was to make the ‘responses’ at least in vaguely clerical circumstances. It is also true that the rubrics did allow the possibility of ‘versus populum’ celebrations of Mass (which was also done on those ‘specialized circumstances’ retreats, etc in the German-speaking countries. The Mass rites, as celebrated, do inform and form the congregation into an ecclesiology — for example, the basic questions of the roles of the clergy, the role of the choir, the placement and role of the ‘ordinary folk’ (the laity). The ecclesiology of the Tridentine Mass with the ‘offertory/sacrificial prayers’ before the Preface along with the ‘double elevation’ during the Consecration and the custom of very infrequent ‘real’ communion and general ‘spiritual communion’ is quite definite and obvious ecclesiology to any observer. [It includes a very Medieval disputatious understanding of the Sacrifice of Christ and is ‘centered on Good Friday’.] The ecclesiology of the post VII Mass takes the same basic and ‘Traditional elements’ and re-arranges them to the Judeo-Christian understanding of Sacrifice as connected with the jointure with the Lord via a Meal — the ‘general purpose’ of Sacrifice well understood in the Middle East, and more Scriptural, “Blessed are those called to the Supper of the Lamb”. The custom of ‘versus populum’, etc. produce an…

      12. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Philip Sandstrom – comment #94:
        You say that “the custom of ‘versus populum’, etc. produce an ecclesiology centered on Easter (as the Eastern Christians) .”

        Don’t most, if not all, Eastern Christians celebrate the liturgy ad orientem?

        Also, at the vast majority of the Tridentine Masses that i’ve been to most of the assembly receives holy communion, chants the responses/ordinary/hymns, and in many places it is the norm for the assembly to make the same responses as the servers during low Mass.

        I don’t see how it is relevant that this is an innovation and was not common back in the day, the fact is that this is the liturgical practice today and so it doesn’t seem that it can apply to communities that currently use this liturgy.

      13. Todd Orbitz

        @Philip Sandstrom – comment #56:
        If there really are entirely different ecclesiologies involves, I am genuinely concerned this directly goes to the Church’s indefectibility. Either one is right, and one is wrong, or neither realize the full truth.

        Either way, it calls into question indefectibility.

  20. “5. SP imposes the EF on no one. Catholics wishing to have nothing to do with it need never celebrate it (with the exception of clergy called upon to provide EF celebrations).”

    The problem is that oftentimes, this is not how SP is applied in parishes. So many times, it’s not an issue of a previously existing “stable group” of parishioners desiring the Missal of ’62 (cf. SP Art. 5. §1), it’s a traditionalist-minded priest who foists his liturgical preferences on a parish, whether they want it or not. Inevitably, some parishioners will go along with Father’s wishes, others will fight it, and other traditionalist-minded folks will travel from miles around to bask in the liturgical utopia that Father has created.

    It’s this sort of application of SP that rips parishes apart and shows little regard for the life of faith of people who desire to worship in their territorial parishs. So much for that whole bit about “…avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church.” (Art. 5. §1)

    1. Cameron Neal

      @Chase M. Becker – comment #34:
      I really don’t believe that. Maybe one or two parishes have done this but this is simply not the case in the overwhelming vast majority of mixed-form parishes. It’s just not true. If you can give me a bulleted list with more than ten parishes listed which are verifiably doing this, I will listen.

      1. Rita Ferrone Avatar
        Rita Ferrone

        @Cameron Neal – comment #37:
        I understand that when the Tablet recently ran a letter from someone in this situation, they received nine more letters complaining of the same. That would make 10.

        Of course there is no way I can roam the UK (and possibly Ireland) to verify their statements, but the usual interpretation of letters to the editor is that if a number of people write independently, there are usually more who could but don’t.

        I don’t expect this to convince you, but I offer it in support to what Chase Becker said.

    2. Bill Johnston

      @Chase M. Becker – comment #34:
      So many times, it’s not an issue of a previously existing “stable group” of parishioners desiring the Missal of ’62 (cf. SP Art. 5. §1), it’s a traditionalist-minded priest who foists his liturgical preferences on a parish, whether they want it or not. [From Comment #34]

      This is an issue with the priest, as you say, foisting his liturgical preferences on a parish whether they want it or not. It isn’t what SP authorizes. It’s particularly unfortunate if the parish has only two or three weekend Masses, one now in the EF – leaving OF Catholics (= nearly everyone) with few options. It’s somewhat less bad (though still unauthorized) if the parish has half a dozen Masses, all in different “styles” anyway.

      Also: priests (or liturgy committees) “foisting their liturgical preferences on a parish whether they want it or not” is a problem that can and has come from any point on the liturgical compass, from “hyper-traditionalist” to “hyper-progressive.” If it is what Catholics on the “left” feel and resent now, when the liturgical menu offered them is too far to the “right” just because the priest in charge makes it that way… this is exactly what Catholics on the “right” would say they have experienced and felt for decades, starting fifty years ago – a priest from the “left” foisting on them his own (not in the ritual book) unwanted liturgical preferences. Always done, on all sides, to foster what is considered good liturgy, done with good pastoral intentions, justified with ritual or theological rationale.

      Where does this leave us? Maybe with a little compassion for each other all around – and patience. And the start of a conversation that asks: how wide are the ritual boundaries by which we can celebrate the liturgy and still be recognizably Catholic? Or: where are the ritual limits beyond which something essentially Catholic has been lost?

      Unity in what is essential, liberty in what is doubtful (in dubiis), in all things charity.

  21. Alan Johnson

    So these seminarians who are being prepared to celebrate both forms. Presumable a considerable portion of their training is now spent becoming fluent in Latin to avoid the abuse of reciting the words while being ignorant of the meaning. I wonder what has been dropped to create the time required.

  22. Tom Piatak

    I think Fr. Alexander Lucie-Smith’s reflection on Summorum Pontificum at the Catholic Herald was quite good: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/07/08/summorum-pontificum-has-put-us-in-touch-with-our-history/

  23. @Alan Johnson (#35): And here was me thinking that all seminarians should be taught Latin as a matter of course.

    The program of priestly formation is to provide that students not only are carefully taught their native language but also understand Latin well [sed etiam linguam latinam bene calleant] and have a suitable understanding of those foreign languages which seem necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of pastoral ministry. (CIC 249)

  24. @Todd Flowerday (#32): I’d say that the modern Roman Rite has a 2000 year pedigree…

    I’d say that the large amount of editing done to the sources of the post-conciliar Missal brings that statement into serious question.

    Prayers taken from many different sources (let alone the new compositions), that sometimes have no history of being used in the places the modern Missal uses them in, often substantially edited so they only vaguely resemble the source material, and on not a few occasions changing the ethos of the source prayers entirely…

    Speaking personally, how the reformers seem to have treated liturgical tradition in their post-conciliar work makes me rather uneasy. I am, therefore, profoundly grateful to the Pope emeritus for his generosity in allowing the EF to be made more widely available.

    1. @Matthew Hazell – comment #40:
      The modern Roman Rite is a direct descendant of the 1962 Missal. My sense is that it will always be half-a-century up on the Tridentine Missal. And if TLM advocates continue to resist simple things like the addition of saints, that gap will widen.

      As for those uneasy with reform, it might indeed be the way it was done. It might also be a willful rebellion from Church teaching. Sometime that’s hard to discern. Suppose TLM advocates were told, “Okay, fine. Keep your TLM Missal. Conduct a reform as you would interpret the spirit and letter of SC. Come back in ten years and show us what you’ve got.”

  25. @Todd Flowerday (#41): The modern Roman Rite is a direct descendant of the 1962 Missal.

    In purely historical, chronological terms, it is, because it came afterwards (well, after the tweaks made to the Ordo Missae in 1965 and 1967, but we’ll let those slide for now). In certain theological, spiritual and formative terms, well… personally, I am becoming less and less convinced of that as time goes by.

    My sense is that it will always be half-a-century up on the Tridentine Missal.

    Whereas my sense is that substantial parts and aspects of the post-conciliar rites for “modern man” are already quite dated and antiquated (and not in a good way).

    As for those uneasy with reform, it might indeed be the way it was done. It might also be a willful rebellion from Church teaching. Sometime that’s hard to discern.

    One could just ask them. I get the impression – understandable given recent history – that some people tend to assume wilful rebellion on the part of those who are uneasy with the reforms. Yet I live in hope that we’re getting to a point in time where those of us who have serious questions about the relationship of the post-conciliar rites to the tradition aren’t automatically looked upon as suspect and anti-Vatican II. Not quite there yet, though.

    Suppose TLM advocates were told, “Okay, fine. Keep your TLM Missal. Conduct a reform as you would interpret the spirit and letter of SC. Come back in ten years and show us what you’ve got.”

    I don’t think 10 years would be enough time. The sheer speed of the post-conciliar reform is one of my (many!) issues with it.

  26. Jonathan Day

    A few months before SP was promulgated, Alcuin Reid – no liberal he – published an article in The Tablet called “Something Old, Something New”. It ended like this:

    And I trust our Pope. I trust him to bring the wisdom of the whole of the Catholic imagination to bear in the liturgical life ofthe Church of today. I trust that he understands well how creativity and genius are not enemies of the tradition but part of it, and that they are its lifeblood because in them the Spirit is active. For he is no reactionary traditionalist, nor is he a tangential liberal. Rather, he is a wise householder who knows when, creatively, ingenuously and led by the Spirit, to bring forth what is new and what is old.

    I found this inspiring and a source of hope, hope for peaceful pluralism, hope for real tradition: the living faith of the dead, as Jaroslav Pelikan called it, as opposed to traditionalism, which he termed the dead faith of the living.

    SP, when it first appeared, reinforced that hope for me.

    But things haven’t played out in that way.

    From the time SP appeared, we have had one triumphalist traditionalist blast after another. Gerald Warner kicked it off in The Scotsman: “Tremble, all Modernists and you who presumptuously claim We Are Church – the spirit of Trent is abroad once more. Welcome to the Counter-Reformation.” Then there was the elevation of bishops like Burke and Ranjith, who were going to put everything right with the bad Bugnini-liturgy. Then, triumph that the SSPX were about to be reunited with the Holy See; surely they would sort things out.

    Pope Benedict may not have been a reactionary traditionalist, but some of his actions encouraged the reactionary traditionalists to flame on. His bizarre comment in the introduction to Jungmann’s book about “a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product” (produit banal de l’instant) sure didn’t help. And Universae Ecclesiae was far worse than SP, in my view. (continued)

  27. Jonathan Day

    (Continued from previous comment number 47)

    Picking up on Bill’s comment 19: has anyone seen evidence for “those on the liturgical fringe … being broadened” as a result of SP? I see increasingly hardening positions on both sides. Commenters on NLM and Rorate — some of whom post here — proclaim the new Mass as inherently defective — “irreformable” (Thomas Kocik) and increasingly identify themselves as “traditional” Catholics, apparently as opposed to the rest of us. Even the term “Traditional Latin Mass” has been arrogated to the 1962 rite.

    Meanwhile, the “progressives” (many of whom post here, but are given no voice whatsoever on most of the “conservative” blogs – the Chant Café might be an exception) take a harder and harder attitude toward Latin, incense, ceremony, etc. Again, no generosity. No real pluralism.

    At least not in what I have yet seen. I hope that the wind is changing under Pope Francis.

  28. One example of an ecclesiology no-longer-with-the-church, either our mind or heart would be the Last Gospel. It’s an historical accretion, and hardly something that harkens back to the First Century. For people concerned with the 70% of the 21st century, an apt replacement would be Matthew 28:16-20.

    Different ecclesiologies in the old and new rites? I’m inclined to think yes in how Scriptural material has been chosen and used. Yes, certainly in the stubborn anti-conciliar sentiment among TLM advocates.

    “(S)ome people tend to assume wilful rebellion on the part of those who are uneasy with the reforms …”

    That’s how it was in the 70’s. Traditionalists flying under their own flags certainly didn’t help their cause. The most prominent group advocating the TLM is still in schism.

    What makes today’s TLM communities so different from people who insisted on Arianism and rejected the council? It’s not a problem that ten years isn’t enough time. The real problem is that too many traditionalists are too lazy and frightened to go where God leads.

    1. Scott Smith

      @Todd Flowerday – comment #58:

      Todd,

      I think you will find the Gospel of John is still in the Bible, including the bits read as the Last Gospel.

    2. Stanislaus Kosala

      @Todd Flowerday – comment #58:
      Todd,

      The difference between TLM communities and Arianism is vast. Arians rejected a dogma defined by an ecumenical council, traditionalists do not reject any defined dogmas by any councils. Arians had the support of most of the world’s bishops at their height, traditionalists don’t.

      As for traditionlists being too lazy and scared to follow God, I believe that there is some quote about splinters and logs floating around here, I can’t quite recall it though…

      Finally, could you clarify, are you saying that the pre-Vatican II rite contains errors concerning ecclesiology?

      1. @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #61:
        The difference is vast, but the interpersonal dynamic is the same. And many traditionalists reject some of the teachings of Vatican II. Not “dogmas” by their definition, but that betgs the question that if Vatican II reforms are not essential to the core of faith, why not just accept that new approaches to liturgy, ecumenism, and religious life are within the orbit of orthodoxy and that one can be obedient to them while advocating further refinement? Sort of like what all of the rest of us did with MR3.

        I’m sure you can recall the citation about splinters and logs. I have no problem admitting I’m afflicted with logs–I’m a sinner just like any other Christian. If Nathan did a post about me, I’d be nervous if not fearful, but I wouldn’t shy away from my faults. But this post is about SP, and substantially, also about the people who cheered it on a little too excitedly.

  29. @Todd Flowerday (#58):

    You have often suggested Mt 28:16-20 as a replacement Last Gospel. In any reform of the EF, this is the sort of tinkering I would be against, for the simple reason that if one is going to keep the Last Gospel, there’s absolutely no need to change it. Jn 1:1-18 is a deep text, crammed full of theology and doctrine; it is also a passage that expresses an evangelistic hope (cf. vv. 5, 12-13). It would be impoverishing to replace it with a text that is just not as deep, and has no tradition of being used in this place at any point in the liturgical history of the Church. IMO, it would also be a overly-utilitarian and rationalist change, and we’ve had a few too many of those in recent times, so thanks but no thanks.

    I also appreciate that, in the 1970s (and 80s), unease with the post-conciliar ritual reforms and wilful rebellion were strongly associated. Things change, though, and perhaps it’s time to stop automatically looking at trads through 1970s spectacles, to stop associating TLM communities with a “stubborn anti-conciliar sentiment”. Certainly, none of the people I know who attend the EF fit into your caricature of traditionalists.

    I mean, describing traditionalists as “too lazy and frightened to go where God leads” – really? If that’s honestly what you think of us, then frankly you need to get out more. (Here, though, I think your viewpoint is coloured by the assumption that the general direction of post-conciliar liturgical reform is something led by God, which I’m not so sure about.)

    1. @Matthew Hazell – comment #60:
      I love John 1:1-18 as a Scriptural and liturgical text. But it’s location is extremely problematic. Giving people a deep and rich text invites a deep and rich reflection. The metaphor that comes to mind is feeding your dinner guest an entire chocolate cake instead of a dish of sorbet to conclude a meal. People are getting up to leave. Don’t weigh them down with a text that invites lingering. It’s just poor ritual, and suggests a very poor understanding of ritual.

      Some traditionalists say things and perform actions that suggest laziness and fear. Really. Not all, to be sure. And if it helps matters, the same faults are also with progressive Catholics.

      1. Karl Liam Saur

        @Todd Flowerday – comment #69:
        +1. The text of the Last Gospel is perhaps my favorite long passage in the Gospels. That doesn’t mean I’d welcome having it at the end of every Mass as a kind of ritual wallpaper; quite the opposite. (The only relief would be on the Mass of Christmas Day, when the Epiphany pericope from Matthew is used instead.)

  30. Jim McKay

    Matthew Hazell : I also appreciate that, in the 1970s (and 80s), unease with the post-conciliar ritual reforms and wilful rebellion were strongly associated. Things change, though, and perhaps it’s time to stop automatically looking at trads through 1970s spectacles, to stop associating TLM communities with a “stubborn anti-conciliar sentiment”. Certainly, none of the people I know who attend the EF fit into your caricature of traditionalists. I mean, describing traditionalists as “too lazy and frightened to go where God leads” – really? If that’s honestly what you think of us, then frankly you need to get out more. (Here, though, I think your viewpoint is coloured by the assumption that the general direction of post-conciliar liturgical reform is something led by God, which I’m not so sure about.)

    I would take your final comment as an example of “stubborn anti-conciliar sentiment.” It undercuts your argument that there has been change on that front.

    1. Bill deHaas

      @Jim McKay – comment #62:
      Don’t you love it – “…..the assumption that the general direction of post-conciliar liturgical reform is something led by God, which I’m not so sure about.”
      Really – based upon what? God talking to you directly?
      Stanislaus – no one is saying that different ecclesiologies implies that the 1962 or pre-VII rite contained errors (this is the usual knee jerk reaction). What the council fathers did say was that the 1962 missal needed reform (reform doesn’t imply errors – rather, it implies analysis of the signs of the times, pastoral decisions, and updating based upon new historical discoveries, better understandings, etc. It acknowledges that the church always needs reform.

      1. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Bill deHaas – comment #66:
        So if the 1962 missal doesn’t have a false ecclesiology, then how can its ecclesiology be incompatible with that of the 1970 missal?

  31. Fr. Jack Feehily

    I will stipulate that it is challenging for me to champion or defend the TLM since I experienced it firsthand through my formative years. I believe that some younger priests are attracted to it precisely because it reflects a more than/ less than understanding of the roles of clergy and laity. These younger priests seem to believe that prior to VII the church was enjoying glory days because of its authoritarian style and structure. Priests didn’t need to press the flesh of their parishioners in order to be respected, everyone called them Father from 26 years of age onward. After all they “said” the Mass in Latin while the folks in the pews got to rustle through their hand missals or pray their rosaries. The EF holds the promise, in their view, of restoring the good old days. These men might be more effective heralds of the Gospel if they abandoned their study of Latin in favor of learning Spanish. The ecclesiologies of the EF and OF are not at all the same. I’m surprised that the good deacon doesn’t believe this.

    1. Stanislaus Kosala

      @Fr. Jack Feehily – comment #64:
      Father Jack,

      I don’t deny that before the Council clergy generally saw themselves as above the laity and that some younger clerics today seek to recapture something of those “glory” days. However, I’m not sure that it’s accurate to say that it was ever entirely absent, at least in my experience. For example, however autocratic those pre-vatican ii priests were, did any of them feel that they could change the rubrics of the mass, invent their own Eucharistic prayers, use leavened bread, forbid people to receive communion in a way that is approved by the church, all on their own whim?

      1. Paul Inwood

        @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #96:

        For example, however autocratic those pre-vatican ii priests were, did any of them feel that they could change the rubrics of the mass, invent their own Eucharistic prayers, use leavened bread, forbid people to receive communion in a way that is approved by the church, all on their own whim?

        This comment demonstrates that one of the problems involved with the Lonergan dialogic method as espoused by Bill and Mike is precisely that any dialogue needs to be founded upon accurate data.

        Here, we have a statement by someone who, I would judge, never lived through the Tridentine rite in the 1950s and 60s as I and others here did, and yet who proposes “facts” about it which are in fact inaccurate. Stanislaus, you don’t think that any pre-Vatican II priests felt that they could change…. etc, etc, all on their own whim. Well, the fact of the matter is that, while they did not change the structure and content of the rites, they did take considerable liberties, intentionally, with the way in which the rites were carried out. I would suggest that what lay behind this was a desire to make the rites more “personal”.

        While some priests followed to the letter the recommendations of such rubrical manuals as Fortescue and O’Connell, many did not, introducing their own practices and going further still.

        A tiny example. At the end of the Epistle, the priest is enjoined to place his left hand flat on the altar immediately to his left to indicate to the server that he is to (in some traditions) say “Deo Gratias”, and in any case to rise from his place where he has been kneeling on the left-hand bottom altar step, go to the centre, genuflect, and then move around the altar step until he is at the right-hand side steps, ready to mount them and move the altar missal from its place there to the other side of the altar for the Gospel reading. This indication is vital to the server, who otherwise does not know when to move.

        Now, the priests I am referring to frequently did not place their hand on the altar in the recommended manner. Some took fiendish delight in doing nothing at all, leaving the server to guess when to move (and providing an opportunity to chastise him if he guessed wrong). Others would use other indications, for example flicking the left elbow out and in again, lifting the left leg to an angle of 30 degrees from the vertical and back again, waving the left arm vaguely in the air, etc.

        And this is one minute part of the rite whose rubrics are not even laid down in the Missale Romanum but whose accepted praxis was closely “regulated” by the rubrical manuals.

        Now multiply this a hundredfold and apply other modifications, many much more drastic (and sometimes dramatic) to the rite, and you have a taste of the variety that celebrants were able to introduce into the ritual.

        The Golden Age of a monolithic, unchanging rite which priests would never dare to tamper with is a simple fiction: it never existed.

        Once this is accepted, then there may be a basis for dialogue about rites which have been consistently and continually modified and adapted in the course of history, and a cessation of the accusations thrown at well-meaning priests who are doing nothing more than continuing the age-old practice by which the rites developed and changed: adapting them to pastoral circumstances.

      2. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Paul Inwood – comment #14:
        Look at the example you give and the examples that I give. Not placing one’s hand on the altar after the epistle versus making up one’s own Eucharistic prayer.

        BTW, I never claimed that there was a golden age, only that too many priests have felt that the liturgy was theirs to make and remake after Vatican II, however well intentioned, it is a form of clericalIsm of a high intensity. It is not up to the individual priest to decide what is and is not a good adaptation, i’m sorry but he does not have that kind of authority.

      3. Jim McKay

        @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #16:

        Yes, compare the examples.
        Before the Council, who would have noticed if a priest ignored the rubrics? Not many because the rubrics were largely arcane rules that people did not care about. Sigrid Undset said that most of the Noregian people probably did not notice when their Church became Lutheran, accepting the changes as routine.
        Who would have noticed if the priest made up his own Eucharistic prayer? No one. I am willing to bet many shortcuts were taken to shorten the service, but it was silent or in a language few understood.
        Forbid people to receive communion? Happened all the time. Most did not receive anyway. There are many pious stories of sisters forbidden capriciously, or consciously, by priests overstepping their authority.

        After the Council, the rubrics were simplified to signify the action better. Departures are probably rarer now because they are more coherent, and more noticeable for the same reason.
        Ditto for the Eucharistic prayer. Priests adapt generally to enhance the prayer for he people praying with him, not to shorten services. (Though that still happens) People actually hear the prayer and understand it. Sometimes they even pay attention!

        A priest is ordained to breathe life into the words and rubrics. He makes the decisions on the liturgy, hopefully under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes he makes mistakes. It is a denial of his ordination to suggest that he has no authority to do what he believes is right.

      4. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Jim McKay – comment #17:
        Firstly, Sacrosanctum Concilium 22.3 clearly states that a priest may not on his own authority make changes to the liturgy, so no, he doesn’t have that authority. The fact that you and Paul seem to think that he does just proves my point that there has been an inflation of power on the part of the priest in this area.

        Second, the examples are apples and oranges: one is a case of a priest cutting corners because no one will catch him since the canon is silent and the other is the priest saying “oh gee I don’t have tho use any of the Eucharistic prayers in the missal I can just make it up as I go along, it really all depends on me alone” (so much for all the talk about the Eucharistic prayer not being just the presider’s prayer.) I’ve never seen any of these presiders handing copies of a proposed new Eucharistic prayer to the community to vote on them,

        Thirdly, people have always been justly.unjustly forbidden to receive holy communion throughout the history of the church. What is novel about the post-vatican ii example vis a viv the pre-vatican ii example is that you have priests thinking that they can deny communion to people because those people adopt a gesture (e.g. kneeling) that they don’t like even though the church approves of that gesture as legitimate. At the very least, the fact shows that post-vatican ii priests can be just as capricious and autocratic as their pre-vatican ii counterparts.

      5. Paul Inwood

        @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #25:

        What is novel about the post-vatican ii example vis a viv the pre-vatican ii example is that you have priests thinking that they can deny communion to people because those people adopt a gesture (e.g. kneeling) that they don’t like even though the church approves of that gesture as legitimate. At the very least, the fact shows that post-vatican ii priests can be just as capricious and autocratic as their pre-vatican ii counterparts.

        But that’s a terribly rare occurrence. What happens much more frequently is traditional-minded priests denying communion to people who aren’t kneeling to receive, or insisting that they receive on the tongue instead of in the hand, both of which are breaches of liturgical law in many countries. If you’re going to sling mud at priests that you don’t agree with, you should also sling mud at the others too. Even-handedness is what we need in this debate.

      6. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Paul Inwood – comment #32:
        I wouldn’t say that i’m swinging mud at priests that I disagree with but i’d be happy to follow that rule, and I hope that you hold yourself and everyone else on this blog to it as well.

        I’ve never heard of priests denying holy communion to people because they weren’t kneeling (even at EF masses) but have heard/seen many instances of priests denying communion to people simply because they were kneeling. I have seen priests insisting that people receive on the tongue where the local law permits reeception on the hand, and I agree that this is a horrible thing. I also want to state that a priest saying the eucharistic prayer silently in an OF mass is just as if not more egregious as a priest making up his own eucharistic prayer.

        I must say that I do not think that you grasp the point of my comment. Nowhere do I deny that tradition-minded priests are often autocratic, suffer from clericalism, and give themselves power over the liturgy that they do not have. I doubt that anyone on this blog questions that. My point is that this phenomenon inflicts priests who are progressive which I have never seen discussed here. Even more than this, a notion has emerged that the priest has a certain power over the liturgy, a notion that did not exist before the council, and was never approved after council. Again a priest aying the eucharistic prayer silently (in the OF), and a priest making up his own eucharistic prayer are both guilty of this.

  32. Bill deHaas

    Cont….
    movements are that the pre and VII council got its inspiration from a deeper study of scripture, the fathers, and church liturgy/history. And they used pastoral situations to help guide their analysis. Recent anti-reform movements do not emphasize the sources above – rather, they cite *tradition* in a very narrow sense – 400 years at most and too often 150 years. Not exactly traditionalism.
    – enculturation – some try to justify SP using this term and yet the council fathers did not include the 1962 mass as a part of enculturation (in fact, less than 1% of folks appear to want the TLM and it is almost completely unheard of in the continents with the largest and fastest growing catholic populations….folks who are interested in enculturation)
    – some suggest that the OF has created the significant loss of catholics at the Sunday eucharist. Any church historian knows that significant losses happened to the church in the 16th century (Reformation); 19th century (European worker classes); and 20th century (professionals, Humanae Vitae, etc.)
    – there is a tradition that popes respect their predecessors’ legacies and yet, Benedict’s SP broke two historical patterns. First, as prefect of the CDF in a book of personal memories (Milestones), described Paul VI’s decision to forbid the 1962 mass as introducing *a breach into the history of the liturgy whose consequences could only be tragic* (surprising that it was a public criticism; not for a small inner circle – and a personal opinion that has no historical foundation) second; the tradition that every new missal was preceded by the abrogation of the former missal; (as John Page constantly reminds us)
    – Ratzinger’s earlier writings suggest that he would not have agreed with SP in his early life. He wrote in his VII Commentary that the Pope has a moral obligation to hear the voice of the Church universal. Yes, juridically, there is no appeal but the Pope does have a moral obligation to listen to the bishops and the bishops have an obligation to take the initiative themselves.

  33. Bill deHaas

    SP in many ways supports a *maximalist* view of Vatican I – a view that the papacy is a monarchy. Thus, Paul VI stated that Vatican II was necessary in order to repair, complete, or restore what was lacking in Vatican I (e.g. in the pope resides all truth; councils are no longer necessary)
    Finally, the series of comments about newly ordained, seminaries, and teaching latin does not reflect my experience. In fact, seminaries have a difficult enough time getting qualified students to earn college degrees and complete theology school. Yes, they may have a couple of years of latin (equivalent of what most my age took in high school). In no way, does this qualify them to be able to understand the EF, they might learn to pronounce and read latin correctly. In this time of so many needs, it is really not a priority to use valuable time to learn the EF/Latin when we all criticize the lack of ars celebrandi (preaching, presidential style, music/chant)…..any divergence to EF only reduces important time that could be spent on sacraments, liturgy, preaching, etc. The notion that some priest candidates are attracted to the EF brings to mind other issues – a focus less on service and community and more on the role of a priestly class; many have an initial infatuation but then run into tension when assigned to parishes that have no desire for the EF or bishops who handle SP by setting up one EF parish; this tendency to see their priestly role as focused on the TLM creates clericalism; tension with pastors from the VII generation; with a highly educated catholic population that may not share the same pieties or liturgical persuasion.

    1. George Jones

      @Bill deHaas – comment #65:
      I would argue that learning the EF provides excellent training in ars celebrandi.

      By way of background, I am in my 20s and attend both the EF and the OF. Growing up, I was always struck by the casualness of OF Mass. It didn’t seem all that important to the priest, so I wasn’t all that important to me. By contrast, years later, the reverence and dignity with which the EF is (usually) celebrated impressed me – something important was going on. I still usually attend the OF, but my faith grew as a result of my encounter with the EF.

      Since SP was released, I have noticed younger priests celebrating the OF with more reverence and dignity. These priests don’t celebrate the EF publicly, but their presidential style seems to reflect a familiarity with the EF. That, in my view, is the most significant benefit of SP.

      BTW, these priests make hospital visits, assist with religious education and help out at the parish carnival. In other words, they show just as much – or as little – focus on “service and community” as the other priests in the diocese.

  34. @Jim McKay (#62): I would take your final comment as an example of “stubborn anti-conciliar sentiment.”

    Then you appear to have totally misunderstood me. How is it anti-conciliar to question whether certain aspects/practices of the post-conciliar reform have been led by God or man?

    It is not the Council that is under question, but rather what came in its name afterwards.

    1. Gerard Flynn

      @Matthew Hazell – comment #69:

      If Jim has ‘totally misunderstood’ you, he has good reason, considering the shifting of the goal posts that you evince from your earlier post to this.

      In your first salvo you referred to “the assumption that the general direction of post-conciliar liturgical reform is something led by God, which I’m not so sure about.” Here this is toned down to ‘”certain aspects/practices of the post-conciliar reform.”

      In addition, the false dichotomy you attempt to set up between whether something is led by God or man (sic) shows a poor understanding of the advances in the theology of faith and revelation of the past century.

  35. Jim McKay

    Matthew Hazell : How is it anti-conciliar to question whether certain aspects/practices of the post-conciliar reform have been led by God or man? It is not the Council that is under question, but rather what came in its name afterwards.

    The Council portrayed the Church as the People of God on a pilgrimage, being led by hierarchy under the guidance of God. Missteps on that journey do not imply the guidance is absent. It is deeply anti-conciliar to suggest that God’s guidance is absent on that journey. It may be that you are right, but it is still opposed to the basic act of faith proposed by the Council.

    Question any and everything, but always with confidence that the Holy Spirit guides the Church.

    1. @Jim McKay – comment #72:
      Perhaps I exaggerated a bit when I wrote of laziness and fear. I think the aversion to Vatican II might be attributed additionally, or in some cases instead of, to a lack of confidence. Lack of confidence in leaders is a hallmark of the Christian West, and it didn’t begin (surprisingly!) with Vietnam and the Counterculture. Consider the 18th and 19th century litanies of offenders: robber-barons, military adventurists and colonialists, dictators, factory and sweatshop owners, aristocrat generals who couldn’t grasp needful new tactics in modern warfare (not to mention today’s oligarchs who are totally confused on southwest Asia).

      For many believers, there is confidence in few, if any persons. Only running backwards to the tried-and-true of the 70’s, the 50’s, or some previous century.

  36. Bill Johnston

    Some comments on Bill deHaas’s detailed reflections.

    #57, on SP as short on collegiality and dialogue. Re dialogue: actually I think a case can be made that mutual enrichment (described in the Letter, not SP itself), if given a chance and freely, fully engaged in, will lead to much dialogue on things liturgical – dialogue Benedict explicitly called for & built into the implementation process – at least as much if not more so than most liturgical documents since the council. Those documents often simply describe or legislate what to do; SP does that, but part of what it legislates (as interpreted and explained in the Letter) is the dialogue inherent in the process of mutual enrichment. SP really does put a lot of say-so in the hands of ordinary Catholics – at least if SP and its Letter are taken seriously and honestly implemented by all concerned. (The book’s chapter on mutual enrichment goes into some detail speculating on the process.)

    On collegiality and the role of bishops in the process: Benedict’s affirmation that SP does “not diminish in any way” (Letter, paragraph 10) a bishop’s liturgical authority in his diocese is difficult to understand and explain, since a bishop has less say over use of the 1962 liturgy in his diocese after SP than he did before.

    #65, SP and a maximalist view of Vatican I & papacy. There’s a paragraph in the book that starts: “In light of these reflections by Cardinal Ratzinger, mutual enrichment begins to look like Pope Benedict’s way of scaling back a historically contextualized but enlarged, even overreaching, understanding and practice of papal authority as regards the liturgy…. Given current legislation, he had to do this by papal fiat, his motu proprio; but having done it, a certain measure of authority, autonomy, and initiative in this matter has been put back in the hands of the people of the church” (pp.252-53).

    #64, on enculturation. It’s interesting to see how much Benedict was for it – in Sacramentum Caritatis no. 54.

    1. @Bill Johnston – comment #75:
      And yet there was hardly any collegiality and dialogue on MR3, very much unlike MR2. For the past generation we’ve suffered under a maximalist view of the curia. B16 did nothing to stop that.

      Inculturation? Read Liturgiam Authenticam: the only culture that really counts is Europe’s.

    2. Bill deHaas

      @Bill Johnston – comment #75:
      Thanks Mr. Johnston and Mr. Jones.
      Bill – have a hard time both understanding or agreeing with your *mutual enrichment* statement. First, if that really was one of Benedict’s SP goals, he acted unilaterally and over the collegial advice of 90% of his bishops.
      Your focus on the *dialogue* and input from ordinary catholics – well, it appears that this was only in regards to those requesting TLM….there is no evidence that it included some type of lay mutual enrichment. You cite from the book an interpretation about the *historically contextualized but enlarged, even overreaching, etc…….this is one opinion that does not appear to have either legs or peer reviewed approval or agreement. And the conclusion actually agrees that SP was a unilateral (overreach?) but necessary so the matter could be put back in the hands of the people of the church. Do you really believe that? How many people even paid attention to this?
      Enculturation – yes, he talked the talk but never walked the walk and SP, again, has nothing to do with enculturation (you failed to address that)

      Mr. Jones – thanks for your generous thoughts and, again, cited that this was my personal experience. That being said, allow me to ponder:
      – how does an unreformed, rubric dominated liturgy help someone in the OF?
      – why does it take the EF to in some way bring certain clerics to the point of paying attention to presidential style or chant, etc.? My comment is that clerical candidates should be focused on the OF, on pastoral/sacramental experiences and want to bring to that a passion to learn, improve, and do the best for their presidential style, music, etc. (your statement seems strange but remember that Rev. McDonald used to say that it took the EF to re-awaken his style in the OF…..think about that statement and what it says?
      – Finally, most seminarians in the US need to learn Spanish; learn to minister to the Hispanic community….my experience is that any time with the EF only takes away from a high priority and need in the current church….Hispanic communities need good liturgy (not the EF). Why spend time on latin/EF when that is not a need in almost any parish setting? And why start with some type of *mutual enrichment*……brings to mind what I have seen in terms of First Masses that are elaborate TLM celebrations that no one understands and are never repeated because no parish celebrates this museum piece. If it takes the EF for a recently ordained priest to improve his OF skills, would question his commitment to liturgy, ars celebrandi preparation, his basic understanding of the reformed liturgy and sacramental theology. Some experiences I have seen:
      – newly ordained played with the EF so that during his parish OF celebrations he introduced an elaborate, highlighted by tone and volume, elevating and holding the host and cup at the words of institution (all this conveys is confusion by this priest about what he is doing); or one who chants the first part of the EP but then recites the rest – why? and the chant has no connection to the Commons tune, music, etc. (talk about drawing attention to oneself); or pre-occupation with minor rubrics when there is no attention given to preparation of the homily, the presidential prayers, making sure that the readings are done well, etc.
      (yes, sure that some of these guys do pastoral work – not just focused on clerical role but I can cite examples of exactly what I have seen)

  37. Pat Barkey

    George Jones : @Bill deHaas – comment #65: I would argue that learning the EF provides excellent training in ars celebrandi. By way of background, I am in my 20s and attend both the EF and the OF. Growing up, I was always struck by the casualness of OF Mass. It didn’t seem all that important to the priest, so I wasn’t all that important to me. By contrast, years later, the reverence and dignity with which the EF is (usually) celebrated impressed me – something important was going on. I still usually attend the OF, but my faith grew as a result of my encounter with the EF. Since SP was released, I have noticed younger priests celebrating the OF with more reverence and dignity. These priests don’t celebrate the EF publicly, but their presidential style seems to reflect a familiarity with the EF. That, in my view, is the most significant benefit of SP. BTW, these priests make hospital visits, assist with religious education and help out at the parish carnival. In other words, they show just as much – or as little – focus on “service and community” as the other priests in the diocese.

    That may be, but those of us who were in seminary during the “bad” years, as I have perceived, HAVE celebrated and CONTINUE to celebrate the Liturgy with dignity. While I understand what you are saying in response, I feel perturbed at how it sounded.

    In my diocese, the younger clergy have a superior attitude, in which they think they are going to FIX the mishaps of the Council (by celebrating the EF and forcing it on their Congregations), all those “VII priests, having botched up things”. In actuality they, themselves, disrupt unity in the diocese. The Diocese is constantly steppjng in to calm the waters. There can be a coexistence, but…

    1. Bill Johnston

      @Pat Barkey – comment #79:
      “In my diocese, the younger clergy have a superior attitude, in which they think they are going to FIX the mishaps of the Council (by celebrating the EF and forcing it on their Congregations), all those “VII priests, having botched up things”. In actuality they, themselves, disrupt unity in the diocese. The Diocese is constantly stepping in to calm the waters.”

      I think one of the most notable practical shortcomings in SP/Letter is the way Pope Benedict downplayed the danger that SP “would lead to disturbances or even to divisions in parish communities” (Letter, par. 6). There was enough evidence of this beforehand that he should have taken it more seriously.

      The real message of SP/Letter is this: that what it authorizes does not in itself cause division, but fosters reconciliation. It is crystal clear that this was Benedict’s intent, his most dearly held intent.

      So therefore, what Benedict would say is this: if division is what results from someone’s actions as authorized by SP, then SP is not being properly implemented. Repeat: if division is what results, then SP is being misinterpreted and its permissions abused.

      1. @Bill Johnston – comment #81:
        “It is crystal clear that this was Benedict’s intent, his most dearly held intent.”

        What’s that saying about good intentions? A sexual abuser also has good intentions: the alleviation of deep rooted feelings of domination and power. An abuser has no intention of scarring victims for life. And if lifelong trauma results, the early sexual acts were misinterpreted.

        SP can be criticized on several fronts, but primarily in theology and prudence. I think its main offense is against the virtue. The TLM was of doubtful fruitfulness after Trent, locking Roman Catholicism into a long stasis, and was part of an attitude that quite possibly lost the Far East for Christianity.

  38. Bill Johnston

    Dear Bill,
    “Your focus on the ‘dialogue’ and input from ordinary Catholics – well, it appears that this was only in regards to those requesting TLM… there is no evidence that it included some type of lay mutual enrichment.” [Comment #77]
    Mutual enrichment isn’t what happened before SP but what can happen after. When Benedict says OF and EF can be “mutually enriching” (Letter, par. 7), he gives a couple examples, to illustrate. Add new OF Prefaces to EF Mass (a ritual change) & new saints to the calendar. EF influence on OF: he mentions no ritual change, just some influence of EF “sacrality” that some find attractive.
    Those are just for-instances; other changes are meant to follow. How will that happen? Dialogue and action.
    Some priests/people celebrate in both forms. They talk about what they find enriching in each (dialogue) – and begin to import experienced “riches” of one form into celebrations of the other (action). Good practices spread from one place to another, by experience (action) & word of mouth (dialogue) – the way holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer spread in the 1970s/1980s.
    Fads will fade & die out; what people/priests find enriching will last. What spreads widely & endures may end up in new editions of liturgical books (like some liturgical movement experiments informed development of the reformed liturgical books).
    If the agency charged with responsibility for SP and its implementation (Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei) doesn’t honor this process, that will torpedo the whole thing. But if they do, then really, honestly, the door has been opened by SP/Letter for popular pastoral input into ongoing & future liturgical change.
    “How many people even paid attention to this?” So far, precious few. But these things take decades, generations. It was 60 years from Pius X’s Tra le sollecitudini (1903) to the liturgy constitution (1963).
    Really, SP instantiates a very populist process. (Shameless self-promotion – see Care for the Church, ch. 7, on mutual enrichment.)

  39. Charles Day

    I can only speak from my personal experience, but I am old enough to have received First Holy Communion, First Penance (not reconciliation) and Confirmation before VII and I also served as an altar boy (not altar server) before VII. My biggest concern about EF proponents that I meet today, is that their actions – and occasionally their words – show more reverence for the form of the Mass than they do for the substance.

  40. Alan Johnson

    I find this EF = well celebrated, and OF = undignified a bit strange.
    I have attended poor celebrations of both forms and excellent ones too.
    But nothing matches my minor seminary experiences of the 1960s when the priests all celebrated individually at side altars and raced to be the first to breakfast. Or the priest of my childhood parish who promised a 15 minute mass on days of obligation.
    And nothing matches the solemnity and splendour of the OF celebrations of the Triduum at Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral.

  41. Jim Mezber

    The Far East loves ritual that is mysterious and not reduced to the most mundane of kindergarten music shows.

    The TLM wasn’t just Trent, though it’s “freezing” might have been. It was substantially the Mass of the Middle Ages going back to at least 500 in many elements, and certainly to 1000.

    People need an experience of arcane ritual. We don’t all need to go to a sing-along written at a third grade reading level.

  42. Todd Flowerday : The TLM was of doubtful fruitfulness after Trent, locking Roman Catholicism into a long stasis, and was part of an attitude that quite possibly lost the Far East for Christianity.

    Alternatively, the TLM was the liturgy that formed and sustained Francis Xavier, Matteo Ricci, Ippolito Desideri, etc. In any case, the Chinese Rites Controversy was not primarily over the liturgy of the Mass, but over what we might call “paraliturgical devotions” involving the veneration of ancestors.

    I think we can praise the reformed liturgy, and even judge it superior in many ways, without slagging off the older form of Mass, much less inventing the chimera of “Tridentine Catholicism” (as if a four-century period were a single undifferentiated block of ossified misery).

    1. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #85:
      Maybe.

      But it was the ecclesiology behind the 1570/1614 liturgy that constituted such a missed opportunity. Matteo Ricci and the Jesuits had a plan. It got quashed. Did anything get accomplished for it? Are some of us still not passing out St Jude chain letters in vestibules?

      No doubt that God was and is able to work through the individual elements: music, Scripture, architecture, an attention to ars celebrandi, art, iconography, and the like. A lot of those elements are not foreign to the modern Roman Rite. Or they need not be. So what’s the point? Trent was perfect, a third testament? Vatican II is just another Pope Francis secular interview? Rite may not have ecclesiologies, but they sure get used as banners for battle often enough.

      What does the post-conciliar resistance mean? Is it just like any other resistance after any other council? Can we suggest that the Arians, even though they were “theological losers,” had something right: an accessible low Christology that had great appeal to many believers? I think we can “get” Jesus as one of us without lurching into heresy or schism. Clearly that is not the case for some modern TLM advocates.

      Francis Xavier, by the way, never celebrated by the 1570 Missal. His Japanese sons and daughters survived for three centuries without a clergy or the Mass.

  43. Jordan Zarembo

    As I have said before, Pope Paul VI could have avoided the oncoming head-on liturgical collision (which I am convinced he saw but ignored anyway) by taking the route of the Church of England’s liturgical reform. The C of E never abrogated the 1662 BCP; the interim liturgies, the Alternative Service Book 1980, and Common Worship are still optional. Most C of E parishes quickly adopted the alternative liturgies, the ASB, and now Common Worship. The BCP is in the distinct minority, like the EF. If Paul VI “promulgated” the 1969 Missal with a non-binding motu proprio, then I would not be surprised if the majority of the world’s parishes adopted 1969 anyway. Would there be more 1962/5/7 Masses? Maybe, but I do not think the vast majority would wait around for them.

    This scenario could have had very negative consequences as well, such as the real possibility that Marcel Lefebvre and his movement would not have left the Church. However, a non-binding 1969 Missal might have slowed or even kept in check the metastasis of the SSPX.

    I know that the 1969 Missal was perhaps the high-water-mark of the liturgical movement. Even so, murmurs of discontent were already well apparent in 1964. Undoubtedly Paul VI heard this rising chorus but did not build accommodation into his plan for 1969, perhaps believing that the liturgical movement had triumphed decisively. This, I believe, was a great folly of a very idealistic Pope (in a good way, a very kind way).

    1. @Jordan Zarembo – comment #87:
      “I know that the 1969 Missal was perhaps the high-water-mark of the liturgical movement.”

      Gosh, I hope not. I hope 1998 wasn’t; I’m still hoping for MR4. Most any serious liturgist would say that the apex was 1983-1989, at least for English-speaking Catholics because of the Pastoral Care, Initiation, and Funeral rites.

      1969? Really?

  44. Todd Flowerday :Francis Xavier, by the way, never celebrated by the 1570 Missal. His Japanese sons and daughters survived for three centuries without a clergy or the Mass.

    He also never celebrated the 1962 Missal, which is what SP permits.

    I would also suggest that the issues behind the Chinese Rites controversy are a bit more complex than the “enlightened Jesuits; benighted Dominicans and Franciscans” narrative that the Jesuits peddle. You’ve got to watch out for those tricky Jesuits and their propaganda.

    1. Todd Orbitz

      @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #91:
      And, of note, there is a clear indult that allowed the 1570 rite to be offered in the Chinese language. It was high Chinese, but Chinese nonetheless.

  45. Bill Johnston

    In this era of contentious liturgical disagreement, efforts to foster greater mutual understanding, especially via the blogosphere, are truly commendable. So thanks and blessings to Pray Tell. But even here, it’s difficult, isn’t it. Contributors speak, and still feel like they haven’t been heard, but rather misunderstood. “Would you please stop and *listen* to me,” each side might want to say to the other. Or: “Stop trying to score points off words I’ve used, and try just once to understand!” Or: “I’m not saying the stupid or hateful things that you are taking me to say, that you are twisting my words to mean when it’s not what I mean at all.” I’ve read such comments in Pray Tell, coming I think from both sides of this unfortunate battlefield, and one can only agree. It seems even the best efforts (like Pray Tell) can fall short, despite the good intentions of the founders.

    Regarding my words yesterday about Benedict’s most dearly held intention in issuing SP being to further liturgical reconciliation in a liturgically divided church, and today’s reply comparing his “good” intention to the “good” intention of the child abuser toward his victim – I confess my first thought was: that crosses a line. Second thoughts were like those expressed above – not being listened to for the meaning that was meant, points being scored off selected words, etc.

    Then I tried to think: what’s being expressed by that comparison? And I came to think it a powerful indicator of the depth of disagreement and polarization, and of a real strength of conviction, grounded I trust in the truth of personal experience, and in perhaps long-held liturgical-theological principles. A strength of conviction that the liturgy favored by the other side is wrong. And is unjustifiable (both sides think the liturgy of the other unfaithful to Vatican II). And is harmful to the church if it (the bad liturgy) continues to exist. [To be cont’d.]

  46. Bill Johnston

    So let me ask Pray Tell contributors: is there a way out of this quagmire? Is there a way that this blog environment can be a place of conversation that gets beyond the mutual misunderstandings and the words that feel like attack and counter-attack, and instead moves on to a real wanting by each to know what the other thinks and why – wanting (precisely because one doesn’t like it or understand it and can’t make sense of it) wanting to finally, truly understand just what is the goodness the other side sees in that liturgy that looks so clearly to me to be so very wrong? What a revelation that could be, to understand that.

    It takes a first step. It takes setting aside, “I need to prove you wrong,” and instead being curious and wanting to learn about this thing I do not understand. Well, I guess it takes a step before that; it takes going from “I know all about you, and that’s why I need to prove you wrong,” to “I don’t know all about you. I really don’t understand you at all – because what I think about you can’t be what you think of yourself, because if it were, you’d give it up in a minute.” So it takes two first steps. 1) I really don’t understand that other guy. 2) I’d really like to – and so I’ll listen – not so as to plan my counter-explanation or counter-attack, but so as to see what I haven’t seen before.

    The goal at this point is not agreement. It is simply better understanding – through conversation that tries really hard to think of and treat the other person with “esteem” and “reverence” and “charity” – which, if I do it, takes us halfway to the “mutual esteem” that Vatican II wanted us to have for each other (Gaudium et Spes, no. 92). How wonderful if that could happen here on Pray Tell.

    1. @Bill Johnston – comment #93:
      It’s difficult, no doubt. Why have some Catholics, despite some frequently poor experiences with the modern Roman Rite (not to mention other Catholics), continued to devote their lives to it? My brother for one expresses amazement that I continue to work for the Church.

      For my part, I confess an investment of thirty-plus years in a career and as a committed volunteer and as a student. I don’t take kindly to caricatures of burlap or Pete Seeger much less accusations of being a heretic.

      Most of human communication takes place beyond the verbal. Unless or until it becomes PrayTellonSkype.com I don’t see there’s great hope for a genuinely full human communication. About eight years ago, I learned a conservative liturgy blogger was passing through my town. He first accepted, then declined my invitation to a backyard barbecue at my place. About six years ago, I was invited to contribute on a conservative Catholic site, but that came to a quick end when I was blamed for the flame wars begun by a few who took great exception to my input. These are a few of my first-hopeful, then disheartening experiences. I no longer expect much from the internet.

      The internet is an intellectual exercise. The real relationships happen in faith communities. I no longer harbor any hope for the blogosphere. In real life, I serve a parish that does the modern Roman Rite very well. I’m willing to talk to people who prefer the basilica 40 minutes south of here–and a few of them I would consider friends. (Their home-schooled kids expressed amazement my daughter, as a “public,” was so nice.)

      Online, I’m a cynic and a skeptic. In real life, I think there’s something to talk about.

      1. Bill Johnston

        @Todd Flowerday – comment #97:
        I mostly share your skepticism about the blogosphere – though nonetheless it’s a reality and people meet there and converse, so finding a way to do it well remains a need. As for Skype – it might help, but maybe not that much. I think the backyard barbeque sounds best of all. I don’t like caricatures either. I’m a fan of Pete Seeger, God rest his soul – though maybe not a Pete Seeger Mass setting :-). For Mass, I’d echo what Michael Joncas said recently in his response to the question about a favorite place for worship: “…I love worshiping in nearly any setting where the gospel can be proclaimed and the sacramental actions achieved. But for a combination of aesthetic and spiritual reasons it would probably be the chapel of the Trappist monastery at New Melleray in [Iowa].” Me too, except, not having been to New Melleray, I’d say at the Trappist abbeys of Gethsemani (KY) or Holy Cross (VA). I wish I’d ever lived in a parish that, since the 60s, aimed for, or simply allowed, that form of celebration in one of its Masses. Certainly not all – there’s a reason for the distinction of cathedral vs. monastic office and I think the same would apply to parish and monastic Eucharist. But in a place with six Masses there should be room for one like that. In most of the intervening years, though, and even today, it would likely have been considered “too conservative” and, as such, unacceptable. But I think that’s an unfortunate judgment; availability of celebrations of that kind would have been a good thing, and acceptable by Vatican II standards. Well, we’ll see how things develop in the years ahead.

      2. @Bill Johnston – comment #6:
        A monastery sounds like a good place for a liturgist like me to retire on Sundays. When I go on retreat, Trappist monasteries are optimal. St John’s Abbey is good for me too.

  47. Mike Joncas

    Re: #92-93. I strongly share your sentiments. My theological training suggests that what you are calling for is an exercise in one of the “functional specialties” in theological method, what Bernard Lonergan called “dialectic.” Here is Lonergan’s introduction to this specialization in his _Method in Theology_:

    “Dialectic, the fourth of our functional specialties, deals with conflicts. The conflicts may be overt or latent. They may lie in the religious sources, in the religious tradition, in the pronouncements of authorities, or in the writings of theologians. They may regard contrary orientations of research, contrary interpretations, contrary histories, contrary styles of evaluation, contrary horizons, contrary doctrines, contrary systems, contrary policies.

    Not all opposition is dialectical. There are difference that will be eliminated by uncovering fresh data. There are the differences we have named perspectival, and they merely witness to the complexity of historical reality. But beyond these there are fundamental conflicts arising from an explicit or implicit cognitional theory, an ethical stance, a religious outlook. They profoundly modify one’s mentality. They are to be overcome only through an intellectual, moral, religious conversion. The function of dialectic will be to bring such conflicts to light, and to provide a technique that objectifies subjective differences and promotes conversion.”

    If I read Lonergan correctly, the core of dialectic is horizon analysis with the invitation to intellectual, moral and religious conversion as one appropriates one’s own thinking, valuing, and spiritual experience. In the next combox, I’ll offer Lonergan’s analysis of the difference in human horizons, with a view toward helping us acknowledge our own limitations in engaging the kind of discussion that Bill Johnston (and I) long for.

  48. Mike Joncas

    [cont.] As you read the following from Lonergan’s _Method_, think of the kinds of horizons exemplified in the discussions we’ve had on this blog (and others):

    “Differences in horizon may be complementary, or genetic, or dialectical. Workers, foremen, supervisors, technicians, engineers, managers, doctors, lawyers, professors have different interests. They live in a sense in different worlds. Each is quite familiar with his own world. But each also knows about the others, and each recognizes the need for the others. So their many horizons in some measure include one another and, for the rest, they complement one another….

    Next, horizons may differ genetically. They are related as successive stages in some process of development. Each later stage presupposes earlier stages, partly to include them, and partly to transform them. Precisely because the stages are earlier and later, no two are simultaneous. They are parts, not of a single communal world, but of a single biography or of a single history.

    Thirdly, horizons may be opposed dialectically. What in one is found intelligible, in another is unintelligible. What for one is true, for another is false. What for one is good, for another is evil. Each may have some awareness of the other and so each in a manner may include the other. But such inclusion is also negation and rejection. For the other’s horizon, at least in part, is attributed to wishful thinking, to an acceptance of myth, to ignorance or fallacy, to blindness or illusion, to backwardness of immaturity, to infidelity, to bad will, to a refusal of God’s grace. Such a rejection of the other may be passionate, and then the suggestion that openness is desirable will make one furious….”

    I hope readers find Lonergan’s sketch of the horizons with which we approach issues resonates with what they experience on this blog (and others). The question is: what to do when the differences are genuinely dialectical? I’ll give an example in the next combox.

  49. Mike Joncas

    [cont.] There has been much discussion and caricature of various “generations” of Roman Catholic priests. Broadly speaking analysts have identified four cohorts presently operative: 1) pre-Vatican II priests, formed in the Catholic ethos prior to the Second Vatican Council (they are by and large retired or dead at this stage); 2) Vatican II priests who were formed in and began the exercise of their ministry ca. 1960-1980; 3) self-identified “John Paul II” priests who were formed in and began the exercise of their ministry ca. 1980s-2000s; 4) a group of “millennial” priest whose characteristics are still being identified.

    One could identify a dialectical difference in horizon between typical representatives of cohorts 2 and 3. A member of cohort 2 would typically hold that the task of the priest, along with the other members of the Church, is to “read the signs of the times,” i.e., to discern where the Holy Spirit was operating in the culture in which they found themselves, and then to align themselves with all other people of good will who share this Spirit-empowered trajectory. A typical member of cohort 3 would find this formulation of priestly ministry puzzling, if not outright despicable. If one’s culture is a “culture of death,” then one does not scan it for the signs of the times in which the Spirit is working; by definition the Holy Spirit does not work in a culture of death. Instead one witnesses to and seeks to convert the culture of death by fierce denunciations of its shortcomings so that members of that culture will “wake up” and accept the lifeline thrown them by the gospel. Occupying dialectically opposed horizons, some members of cohort 2 tag those of cohort 3 as “conservatives” betraying the Second Vatican Council, while some members of cohort 3 tag members of cohort 2 as “hippy, dippy” clerics who fiercely damaged the church in the wake of Vatican II and whose influence, fortunately, will abate through the “biological solution.”

    Perhaps a parallel can be draw in…

    1. Bill Johnston

      @Mike Joncas – comment #100:
      Michael, thanks for the time and effort taken to bring Lonergan into this discussion – very helpful.

      Re Comment #99: Blog comments here are often experienced as coming from horizons that differ dialectically. Do the Lonergan categories invite us to consider: Can we re-imagine the various visions and values (horizons) as differing but complementary? Or as differing but genetic?

      Re your Comment #100 and cohort 2 (Vatican II priests) and cohort 3 (John Paul II priests) differences: when I worked in one diocese I heard stories of clergy retreats in the 1960s – that meal times would sometimes end in shouting matches between the then older priests and the “young Turks” (no offence intended – it’s what Andrew Greeley called them at the time), the Vatican II priests. I haven’t heard of shouting matches, but the differences between today’s older priests (those same Vatican II priests) and today’s “young Turks” seem to be just as deep and bitter.

      First thought: Or, is it that bad? With my prior pastor (excellent – former seminary rector, model VII moderate) we’d get newly ordained priests for their first 2 years. I’ve seen about five pass through. All were more “conservative” than he, but only one was truly beyond the pale; at least three were commendable in some ways, with a seriousness of faith, and one an excellent preacher.

      Second thought: seasons change, years pass, this is the new era. How can it be done less dialectically, in a more peaceful respectful genetic horizon shift?

      Robert Schreiter wrote an article trying to present both a “world-affirming” (Concilium, cohort 2) type Catholicism and a “world-challenging” (Communio, cohort 3) type Catholicism in a positive, appreciative, “complementary” (not “dialectical”) light. It’s effective. Schreiter, “Pastoral Theology as Contextual: Forms of Catholic Pastoral Theology Today” in Keeping Faith in Practice: Aspects of Catholic Pastoral Theology, ed. James…

  50. Bill deHaas

    A few responses:
    – Mr. Johnston……yes, guess you could say that this is a *dialogic* issue but, as I stated at length, this motu proprio, IMO, will die a slow death; be forgotten except by a tiny minority; and, if Benedict dies soon, would predict that Francis’s effort to shift away from a centralized curia and implement collegiality (even via changes to canon law) will place the *SP intentions* in the hands of episcopal conferences (where it belonged to begin with). Sorry, this papal directive is an over-reach; created polarizations and disunity; had little to do with the overwhelming *mission* of the church especially in the continents of Asia, Africa, and South America; and turned back the VII initiatives.
    Rites don’t have ecclesiologies – not sure this is accurate. As others have stated, the Western Roman Rite has developed over centuries and following the Lex Credendi, Lex Orandi, liturgy (rites) reflect the ecclesiology of that time period. It also completely ignores the *radical* Benedict decision to approve *two forms of one rite*??? Really? and this gets to the mutual enrichment argument – Mr. Johnston, your response above shows how SP’s letter gave no examples of how this would impact the OF basically summarizes the whole *Benedict wishful* effort.

    Deacon and Fr. Joncas – here is a link to an excellent research history on the Chinese Rite Controversy (okay, Deacon, the Institute is located on a SJ university) but it touches on some of what Fr. Joncas is quoting from Lonergan: http://www.ricci.usfca.edu/research/pacrimreport/prr32.pdf

    Examples of the Chinese Rite Controversy that is paralleled in this discussion:
    – SJs were opposed by Roman curial centralizers; Gallican supporters of national religion; Europeans that wanted to impose Western styles of liturgy, etc.
    – disagreements were over use of Chinese dialect in liturgy (first approved then denied); use of language in naming God; use of cultural norms in various sacraments (funerals); and things such as celebrating liturgy with head coverings.
    – one research argument was that Ricci and the SJs were not able to articulate their cultural intuition with theology (thus, Rome rejected it)
    – one issue resonates – in China at that time, they confronted a non-Western church and how to enculturate; today, we live in a church that is mostly non-Western so the enculturation questions come to the fore again; (what does SP have to do with this major issue)
    – research indicates that the controversy was part jurisdictional struggle between curial departments; religious orders, and the old catholic nations of France, Spain, and Portugal.
    – the rites controversy happened during a significant cultural shift in Europe – a reaction to change and an insistence upon order, conformity, uniformity, that the Reformation reaction at Trent led to a uniform liturgy (no room for enculturation).
    – to Deacon’s point….the researchers do point out that the old Jesuit position can coincide with current biases and prejudices.

    1. Bill Johnston

      @Bill deHaas – comment #4:
      “…and this gets to the mutual enrichment argument – Mr. Johnston, your response above shows how SP’s letter gave no examples of how this would impact the OF basically summarizes the whole *Benedict wishful* effort.” [Comment #104]

      No, sorry, I wasn’t clear (I was editing to fit the word limit). The Letter gives those two examples of OF influence on the EF: import some OF Prefaces into the Mass and saints into the calendar. The example of EF influence on the OF: no ritual examples, just reference to its acquiring a greater spirit of “sacrality.”

      What can we infer from these examples? The safest interpretation is that they are just very brief examples of possible change and nothing more should be read into them than that. Let the mutual enrichment of the two forms proceed however it proceeds.

      But another interpretation is possible, I’d venture, and it’s not that it shows Benedict’s lack of interest in the OF since he’s really only interested in fostering the EF (I wasn’t sure – is that what you meant?). Rather, we can read it this way: that when Benedict thought about what mutual enrichment might bring about, he thought it would be good if the OF ritual influenced the EF ritual. That is, the EF ritual would benefit from change moving in the direction of the OF. Ditto for EF influence on the OF? Nope. To judge from the example, no need for change in the OF ritual, only some change in the way it is celebrated (in those places where this is not already the case) – namely, with “sacrality,” reverence, formality, or the like.

      That may squeeze too much out of his for-instance examples, but I think it’s an interesting and arguable inference regarding the thinking of the man who spoke of the new Missal as “in many respects… a real improvement and enrichment” over the one it replaced.

  51. Jordan Zarembo

    Bill: Mr. Johnston……yes, guess you could say that this is a *dialogic* issue but, as I stated at length, this motu proprio, IMO, will die a slow death; be forgotten except by a tiny minority; and, if Benedict dies soon, would predict that Francis’s effort to shift away from a centralized curia and implement collegiality (even via changes to canon law) will place the *SP intentions* in the hands of episcopal conferences (where it belonged to begin with).

    I understand that this is addressed to Mr. Johnston, but I’d like to say this. I predict the opposite of what Bill is saying. SP will be preserved simply because many bishops (save a number of liturgically progressive bishops in developed countries) would rather give the trads a church or two and be done with it rather than go through the indult battles again.

    Bill, I am sure you are well aware at the forty-year vituperative verbal jousting between bishops and their traditionalist flock. Pope Francis, no traditionalist, probably knew the above well especially because of the Lefebvrist thorn in his side while archbishop of Buenos Aires. Pope Francis is sensible: continue SP, and put out the fires of crypto-schismatic, anti-semitic, or power struggles in trad parishes in an ad-hoc manner. This is much more realistic than another act of uniformity. I am sure that Pope Francis intends that his brother bishops act similarly.

    Many poisonous plants are cultivated for aesthetic value. When pruned and cared for correctly, and kept out of the reach of those who might inadvertently eat the poisonous leaves or berries, these plants are very beautiful. When these plants are not tended, the risk of poisoning grows. Similarly, the EF is a beautiful liturgy which runs the risk of becoming overgrown and dangerous without due care. SP is the pruning instructions for the EF. The indult period (to which you seem to want to return) let the EF flower grow unchecked, leading to needless strife and anger.

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Jordan Zarembo – comment #5:

      Okay, a clarification here. In my experience, a small minority of EF adherents in union with Rome are anti-semitic or hold similarly vindictive prejudices. Hatred is. Still, hatred cannot be tolerated because of the corrosive effect that hatred have on parish community and life, as well as the human community. It’s better to give bishops a more universal blueprint for caring for the EF rather than have each bishop go his own way. Maybe Pope Francis should spell out how to deal with difficult situations to his bishops. Again, the presence of hatred cannot be run away from but must be faced squarely. Under the indult, the preferred episcopal method was often to ignore hatred and other grave dividers of communities, rather than have a cohesive plan to address problems.

  52. Ed Nash

    The key point is ‘internal reconciliation in the heart of the church.’ # 8

    Reconciliation assumes that someone has been wronged. With the SP…who was wronged? People may be upset but were they hurt or wronged?

    1. Bill Johnston

      @Ed Nash – comment #11:
      Efforts promoting reconciliation may just be a response to a situation in which people are “at odds” – without necessarily asking, who was wronged? Since, in the church, some people are at odds and divided over the liturgy – operating out of different horizons (Comments #98-100) – Benedict took a step in SP designed to create some conditions that could promote reconciliation of those differences. Nor was SP an isolated step. Sacramentum Caritatis could be read in this context too – as a document on the liturgy one of whose desired outcomes was greater ecclesial unity in the Eucharist.

  53. Bill deHaas

    Mr. Johnston and Jordan – you both want to start now and apply Lonergan’s dialogic method.
    Your statements:
    “Benedict took a step in SP designed to create some conditions that could promote reconciliation of those differences. Nor was SP an isolated step” You also suggest that mutual enrichment by Benedict was from the OF to the EF (OF only in terms of *sacrality* whatever that means) (suggest also that many of the TLM commenters here would not agree with your interpretation)
    “….the EF is a beautiful liturgy which runs the risk of becoming overgrown and dangerous without due care. SP is the pruning instructions for the EF. The indult period (to which you seem to want to return) let the EF flower grow unchecked, leading to needless strife and anger.” You also suggest that Paul VI’s abrogation decision was not good leadership and that indult periods have done more harm than good.

    As I said above, this is starting in media res.

    50 years ago or 45 years to Paul VI missal – we start with one of the best examples of Lonergan’s dialogic method – VII. And yet, a small minority continued to reject this dialogue.
    Paul VI followed 1500 years of church tradition – he abrogated and also was generous in his indult (we can argue about how episcopal conferences handled that indult but then we can also cite many anecdotal stories of folks who resisted the OF including clerics and bishops.)
    Would suggest that the dialogue and Lonergan’s latter steps were rejected by TLMers – why? because their starting and ending point is the TLM – a beautiful liturgy even if this means tortuous explanations, inventing two forms of one rite, etc. And now both of you think dialogue is SP because it will allow this *beautiful liturgy* to be influenced by the OF. So, at some point it basically becomes the OF except for certain rubrics, ad orientem (which is allowed in the OF), etc. So, what is the point? Will every generation that has a small minority attracted to a museum piece have to go thru a dialogic process with the church? Really?
    Would also suggest that 50 years late, Benedict’s SP did not promote reconciliation or resolve differences – it only created those. And, it is interesting that now you want to start a dialogic process – after ignoring, rejecting, etc. 50 years of this process. SP itself was an exercise in ignoring Lonergan’s method – it was a power driven, unilateral gesture that ignored 90% of the dialogue with his bishops. If the issue was having episcopal conferences do a better or more merciful/generous response to the indults, then that is what Benedict should have done (talk about poor leadership – it completely negates any negatives in terms of Paul VI’s abrogation which only followed tradition. SP has carved a new tradition – despite what Jordan says about Francis – it will die a slow death because it is not based upon Lonergan’s dialogic method and most of that very small minority are not interested in dialogue.

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Bill deHaas – comment #13:

      BIll, you have misrepresented me here:

      The indult period (to which you seem to want to return) let the EF flower grow unchecked, leading to needless strife and anger.” You also suggest that Paul VI’s abrogation decision was not good leadership and that indult periods have done more harm than good.

      I have absolutely no desire to go back under the indult. I am satisfied with the status quo. I would be the first with the pruning shears to trim and shape the EF flower as necessary. Indeed, there are parts of the 1962 Missal which need pruning despite the intransigence of many traditionalists in this regard.

      I am a postmodern traditionalist. This is no oxymoron. I am traditionalist in that my spiritual life is nourished significantly but not exclusively by the Tridentine liturgical heritage. I am postmodern in that I dress in the manner of the world and follow the social conventions of the world. I consciously cultivate a respect for the personal autonomy of others in ritual and spiritual expression. It gravely concerns me that liturgies of the Tridentine tradition have caused injustice, suffering, and atrocity. I am convinced that where an Ordinary Form liturgy better expresses the Church’s interreligious and social justice constitutions of Vatican II, this liturgy should be substituted for the analogous 1962 liturgy.

      There is a place for medieval liturgy in a postmodern Church. Indeed, there must be a place unless all Catholics forget the history of the Church as institution and body of the baptized. History must be forever before us if we wish to grow in morality, ethics, and holiness. Pope Paul VI declined to take up this challenge, instead opting for liturgical uniformity. I disagree with his actions. SP has corrected what Pope Paul did not or could not do.

      1. Bill deHaas

        @Jordan Zarembo – comment #15:
        Thanks, Jordan for the response. Understand but we just see things differently on two essential points:
        – SP did not correct Paul VI or JPII – it only created division and polarization 50 years too late
        – There is a place for catholics to remember the history of the church e.g. TLM but that doesn’t mean that it is or becomes an active part of our current worship/liturgy……….also, he didn’t opt for uniformity; he opted for one form of the rite (which is our tradition) and then asked that conferences and the people of God enculturate that one rite. (TLM is not diversity; it is not a separate rite; it is not enculturation)
        Can you imagine what the church would be like if every *historical* mass and rite was celebrated – for what purpose? Liturgy is about our current communal faith – not something from the past.
        You tread closely to something Jonathan stated much earlier – Pelikan’s “Tradition is the living faith of the dead, traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. Taditionalism gives tradition a bad name.”

  54. Karl Liam Saur

    “It is a denial of his ordination to suggest that he has no authority to do what he believes is right.”

    It is no such thing. What a piece of twaddle.

    1. @Karl Liam Saur – comment #18:
      Karl is right on this one. Taken to a logical next step, the baptized are free to do as they see fit by virtue of baptism.

      While Jim overstates the case for clergy, it is true that priests are given a broad leeway within the rituals of the sacraments to adapt. And they have that powerful soapbox opportunity, the homily.

      Communities, not clergy, give life to the liturgy. Rubrics are an indispensable means to that end.

      1. Jim McKay

        @Todd Flowerday – comment #19:

        Todd, when a child is anointed with chrism, we pray:
        “As Christ was anointed Priest, Prophet, and King, so may you live always as a member of his body, sharing everlasting life.”
        This is your “next logical step.”

        A similar context surrounds my words, ie that the Holy Spirit given in ordination is the basis for the authority of the priest. If the priest is cut off from the Spirit by being forced to rely solely on rubrics and law that he believes are not right for the congregated, his ordination has no meaning. Ordination is not the same as being given a book of rules to follow. Rather it is being given authority by the gift of the Holy Spirit to bring life to a world of rubrics, laws, and structures.

        We all know that every priest is enmeshed in many relationships that contribute to what he believes is right, with bishops, congregations, other priests, etc. Those relationships testified to his suitability for ordination. Presumably he has been taught and believes that the Spirit gives life to words and rubrics.

        —-
        Thank you Bill. Lots of people differ with me on many different things, but it is still hard to hear them speak so dismissively.

    2. Bill deHaas

      @Karl Liam Saur – comment #18:
      From July 3rd, 3:24 PM from KLS and applies to his comment now:

      “This is very unedifying at this point.”

      (The use of the term *twaddle* like the earlier use of B.S. is sad and unfortunate)

      Sorry, Todd – re-read what Paul Inwood and others have stated about these anecdotal stories (clown masses or horrendous/perfect pre-VII masses). It gets us nowhere.

      Fact – SC and subsequent liturgical directives lay out principles especially for those planning liturgies to use their best presidential style, ars celebrandi,etc. so that these liturgical/music teams can make the communal eucharist an experience of full, active, and complete participation. Let’s not confuse the old rubrical manuals with what the reformed liturgy asks of us. We are called to make decisions, there are options; there is a need to understand liturgical/seasonal/scriptural foundations and bring these to life in the liturgy (it is not a cookie cutter operation).
      So, in the *best* sense, every priest is called to express liturgy in the best way possible (sorry, that probably means to a degree that he is doing what he believes is right) rather than just mindlessly imposing some type of pre-ordained communal celebration. *in fact – would suggest that lots of our discussions about ars celebrandi (including homily, prayers, choices, chants, etc.) are exactly about what Jim McKay is stating (you may not like his sentence but he is correct in his intent and goal)

  55. Okay, let’s dial back a bit. Let’s say that “denial” and “twaddle” are caricatures, mistakes if you will, that need some refinement.

    The point being that there is a rather broad road on which a priest may tread. Having been in liturgical ministry for over thirty years, I appreciate a priest who plans ahead and prepares his options, especially when he does so as part of a team effort. Less edifying is being at Mass, especially in a position of responsibility, and having to wonder where things are all going to go.

    I think we all have had experiences where people and lay ministers are kept guessing by a guy who sees fit to do things “on the fly.”

    That said, the ability to adapt, improvise, or inculturate is not a quality of ordination, but of liturgical training.

    And yes, aside from the Holy Spirit, it is the community that brings life to the liturgy. The priest can be either the biggest aid or the biggest obstacle.

  56. Bill Johnston

    Stanislaus Kosala : BTW, I never claimed that there was a golden age, only that too many priests have felt that the liturgy was theirs to make and remake after Vatican II, however well intentioned, it is a form of clericalIsm of a high intensity. It is not up to the individual priest to decide what is and is not a good adaptation, i’m sorry but he does not have that kind of authority.

    On that form of clericalism by which priests think the liturgy is theirs to make and remake – a student who graduated from our MA program a few years ago got a job in campus ministry at another university. She was at a group planning meeting for an upcoming liturgy. The presider described something he planned to do. She (with temerity? or courage?) said (in so many words): “Actually, you can’t do that.” To which he replied (quote-unquote): “I can do what I like. It’s my Mass.”

    What do you think would be a good reply?

    She said (as she told me): “It’s not your Mass. It’s the people’s Mass.”

    Or how about this: “It’s not your Mass. It’s the church’s Mass.” (Interesting to think how those two responses are similar… and different.)

    In any event, here’s what Vatican II says: “no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority” (SC, no. 22.3).

    As for individual priests having the authority to make individual decisions – the rite does give them this authority, in various places. The intention is great: to allow for appropriate pastoral adaptation of a given (world-wide) ritual to the local circumstances of this congregation. Some priests do this mostly well, and then the permission is a real blessing. Unfortunately not all priests are equally competent. And the permission can be misused.

    Here’s something John Baldovin wrote five years ago: “often the comments made by presiders at the beginning of the liturgy serve not their good intention of bringing the community together but rather as a distraction from the business of worshiping” (in Studia Liturgica 2009, p.154).

    Given all that: what to do?

    1. Stanislaus Kosala

      @Bill Johnston – comment #24:
      Yes there are places where legitimate options do exist that the priest may make use of on his own authority. (e.g. choosing eucharistic prayer iii, saying mass ad orientem, chanting the collect, using incense) . I’m not talking about choosing between legitimate options which everyone agrees exist rather i’m talking about the priest getting to make up options of his own when he sees fit. (e.g making up a eucharistic prayer, omitting the pentitential rite, omitting the chasuble having the lay people come up the altar to take the host themselves and dip it into the chalice)

      1. Bill Johnston

        @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #26:
        I think we’re basically on the same page here. I did have more in mind, though, those other legitimate options the rite gives the presider, when he is allowed/instructed to speak to the congregation “in these or similar words.” In those instances, it all depends on the presider, more so than when he decides whether, e.g., to speak or chant the collect – in either case there, it’s still the collect the ritual provides. But when he speaks in his own words – if it is well done, the congregation and the liturgy are well served; if it is not well done, then they are not.

        Perhaps the new blog, “Non Solum: Liturgical Presidency,” will be a place for discerning the characteristics of when this is well done, and when poorly.

  57. Karl Liam Saur

    Todd

    You read me correctly: my use of “twaddle” was a exercise in mirroring for the melodramatic rhetorical overkill of “denial”.

    I am no rubrical rigorist, though I expect rubrics to be forthrightly engaged rather than cherry-picked or subject to a cherry-picked interpretation.

    Priests come and go. Congregations remain, and have to clean up after the priests leave. The fiduciary responsibilities inherent in doing what is right (as opposed to merely what the book says) entail grappling with the fact that the congregation has to live in a different way with the consequences of presidential improvisation than the improviser does. And I’ve seen way too little of broad and deep consultations with congregations (liturgical commissions and pastoral councils are *no* proxy or substitute, btw – unless they are chosen purely randomly and with great frequency) to get the congregation’s sense of what it needs (not necessarily wants) in liturgical terms. If it’s done right, it’s a *ton* of consultative work of years. Jack Rakosky (where did he go? I miss his voice here) could dilate on this point far better than I would.

  58. Jim McKay

    Just to be clear, I do not think “denial” is “rhetorical overkill.” It is the proper term for what I was describing. Ordination does not consist of giving a priest a missal and telling him to say the red and do the black. Ordination gives him the Holy Spirit and tells him to share everlasting life. Reducing the priest’s position to saying the black is denying his role as one given the Holy Spirit to bring life to the congregated.

    Hopefully the priest, before his ordination, has received training that enables him to make proper liturgical decisions. He has learned that he does not act alone, that rubrics serve a purpose, he represents the bishop, etc. This liturgical training is about a completely different level of authority.

    Everyone is welcome to disagree with me on this. I am just expressing my opinion.

    1. @Jim McKay – comment #29:
      “Ordination gives him the Holy Spirit and tells him to share everlasting life.”

      I think the sacrament that does this is baptism.

      “Reducing the priest’s position to saying the black …”

      I think that position is a caricature. Granted, there are rigorists who disagree with the ample options the modern Roman Rite gives to the presider. To such, I would say: get over it.

      “Hopefully the priest, before his ordination, has received training that enables him to make proper liturgical decisions.”

      Yes, that is a hope.

      “i’m talking about the priest getting to make up options of his own …”

      I don’t think anybody is talking about that. Period.

  59. Bill deHaas

    Todd – again, think that Jim McKay is talking about the proper and appropriate options that the presider can and should make (not making things up – that is also a caricature). If anything, would suggest that the current issue is the lack of presiders, pastors, etc. knowing the options; much less making deliberate and planful choices.

    And SP, certain seminaries, bishops, and their seminary staffs have only made the SC principles more difficult.

  60. Jim McKay

    Todd Flowerday :
    “Ordination gives him the Holy Spirit and tells him to share everlasting life.” I think the sacrament that does this is baptism.

    my apologies. I meant to fix this so it was clear that that he shares the living Word, the bread of life, with those he serves. I still haven’t found a good way to express it, but I was trying to bring out a different nuance of share.

    “Reducing the priest’s position to saying the black …” I think that position is a caricature. Granted, there are rigorists who disagree with the ample options the modern Roman Rite gives to the presider. To such, I would say: get over it.

    I think you need to say a little more than that. What does ordination have to do with liturgy? I have tried to provide more, and have not gotten much beyond tart disagreement. Is a priest’s relationship with liturgy only about how he chooses among the options in the Missal? If not, what is his position, and what authority does he have?

  61. Jim,

    This is the only thing you’ve written with which I would find objection: It is a denial of his ordination to suggest that he has no authority to do what he believes is right.

    This exceeds the authority and doesn’t mention the lawful options of the Missal. I know you aren’t advocating a free-for-all by all presbyters. That’s the language I think needs cleaning up. Just making sure you’re not erring on the side of clericalism, is all.

  62. Jim McKay

    Bill and Stanislaus both reference SC 22.3. Let me just say that this passage can be understood in a number of different ways. It will be understood in one way by the person who wants the priest just to “say the black.” It will be understood in very different way by the priest who composes highs own Eucharistic prayer. Neither will believe himself to be violating the rule, because the meaning is not at all as obvious as some say.

    In that situation, someone has to decide.

    The situation you describe about kneeling is not new to the post Vatican Ii era. Forbidding someone to commune daily was not unusual in the past. This was an allowed practice, as kneeling is today, yet priests did not allow some people to do it. Priests acted autocratically then and now. That was entirely my point. We disagree not on that, but on whether this was or is appropriate.

    1. Stanislaus Kosala

      @Jim McKay – comment #36:
      Jim,

      It has already been determined by competent authority that the priest making up his own Eucharistic prayer is violating the rule which prohibits priests from changing things on their own authority. For example, look at Redemptionis Sacramentum 51:

      “Only those Eucharistic prayers are to be used which are found in the Roman Missal or are approved by the Apostolic See, and according to the manner and terms set forth by it. It is not to be tolerated that some priests take upon themselves to compose their own Eucharistic prayers, or to change the same text approved by the church, or to introduce others composed by private individuals.”

      For the record i believe that it is both wrong an inappropriate for the pre-vatican ii priest to refuse daily communicants as the post-vatican ii priest for denying communion to people because they wish to receive kneeling.

  63. Bill Johnston

    Jim McKay : Bill and Stanislaus both reference SC 22.3. Let me just say that this passage can be understood in a number of different ways. It will be understood in one way by the person who wants the priest just to “say the black.” It will be understood in very different way by the priest who composes highs own Eucharistic prayer. Neither will believe himself to be violating the rule, because the meaning is not at all as obvious as some say.

    Dear Jim, I’d find it helpful if you could give an example or two of different ways to read SC 22.3 – including the way a priest who composes his own Eucharistic prayer, or adapts the given Eucharistic prayers, would see himself not to be acting against that Vatican II provision. When I read it, it sounds clear – so I need some help in understanding its ambiguity. Thanks.

    1. Jim McKay

      @Bill Johnston – comment #38:

      SC 22 begins “The regulation of the liturgy…” Given that context, it is easy to read part 3 as about the regulation of the liturgy, not about the performance of it. A priest may not adapt the liturgical books in a binding manner, but in performing the liturgy, he is not regulating the liturgy. Rather he is exercising his responsibility to form the community as set out in Presbyterorum Ordinis.

      If you really want, I could come up with others. I think the above is closer to the meaning of SC 22.3 than the reading you offered, but I wouldn’t want to argue or base my behavior on it. Undoubtedly there are other ways of understanding it, as there are many ways of understanding a scripture passage. And no passage is isolated, but has to be read in the broader context of the priest’s responsibilities to bishop, congregation and above all, the Gospel.

      1. Stanislaus Kosala

        @Jim McKay – comment #39:
        Sure you could read it that way by itself, but it has already been clarified by further documents down the line such as Redemptionis Sacramentum (quoted in my previous comment) and Inaestimabile Donum, which unamibgiously condemn the practice of priests modifying current , or composing new Eucharistic prayers on their own initiaitve.

      2. Bill Johnston

        @Jim McKay – comment #39:
        Thanks, that helps.


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