Pope Francis wants a mess?!

The things Francis says continue to be amazing and unbelievable. Take this for example, as reported in Huff Post:

“I want to tell you something. What is it that I expect as a consequence of World Youth Day? I want a mess. We knew that in Rio there would be great disorder, but I want trouble in the dioceses!” he said, speaking off the cuff in his native Spanish. “I want to see the church get closer to the people. I want to get rid of clericalism, the mundane, this closing ourselves off within ourselves, in our parishes, schools or structures. Because these need to get out!”

Granted, he’s speaking off the cuff, and this is but a translation. It has the character of many of his spontaneous comments, which seem a bit imprecise. There is a wonderful spirit of openness and novelty, and it all feels very different from Benedict XVI. You sense the general thrust but wonder what exactly he means.

What do you suppose he meant here?

awr

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30 responses to “Pope Francis wants a mess?!”

  1. Samuel J. Howard

    There is a wonderful spirit of openness and novelty, and it all feels very different from Benedict XVI.

    Doesn’t seem so to me. Benedict XVI put forward a number of programs that shook things up in the dioceses.

    Reply
    1. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      @Samuel J. Howard – comment #1:
      OK, good point, but putting forward programs is something different from this post topic, which is the style of language the Pope uses. That certainly feels quite different to me. I don’t recall Benedict every saying he wanted “a mess.”
      awr

      Reply
    2. Charles Day

      @Samuel J. Howard – comment #1:
      You can shake things up by closing doors, and you can shake things up by opening doors. Both actions shake things up, but they are radically different.

      Reply
  2. Dale Rodrigue

    ” I want to get rid of this…. closing ourselves off within ourselves… Because these need to get out!”

    He’s the pope of hope!

    He certainly doesn’t subscribe to B16’s old devolved withered remnant Church.

    Go Francis!

    Reply
  3. Rita Ferrone

    Roflol. Just like Pope Benedict!?
    The amount of denial necessary to believe that is mind boggling.
    A mess may be what Pope Benedict caused, but it is surely not what he wanted.

    Reply
    1. Paul Inwood

      @Rita Ferrone – comment #4:

      A mess may be what Pope Benedict caused, but it is surely not what he wanted.

      Brilliant, Rita!

      Reply
  4. Bill deHaas

    From Drew Christiansen’s latest article:

    http://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/francis-ignatian-pope

    Highlights:

    Interior Freedom. “As I witnessed his day by day abandonment of centuries-old custom, I marveled at his joyful, spiritual freedom. I soon realized it manifested his appropriation of the Ignatian value of “indifference.” It is an old-fashioned, philosophical term, borrowed from the Stoics, but what indifference means is freedom from distracting and degrading attachments, so as to be free to do what is more conducive to the good of souls. It has become clear that his aim is to make the church the church of Christ, welcoming to all, and appealing because it shows its care for all people.”

    An Inclusive Church. “The spirit of openness is foundational to the Jesuit way of proceeding. Jesuit churches are known for their inclusiveness and a prescription for a style of encounter that makes condemnation of those in error a last resort.”

    OTOH – from experience in the corporate world (Jonathan Day should be able to add to this)

    Would suggest that Francis is using *change management* techniques:
    – the business world has often experienced creative tension in its RD or worksites to be the engine of success. Award-winning corporations will deliberately encourage disruption so that creativity and initiative bring better and faster development.
    – specifically, organizational change has natural side effects – problems. But problems are progress. In many ways, it appears that Francis is implementing exactly what change management gurus espouse and is acting as a *Change agent*.
    This is *counter-intuitive* but, in the midst of change, we need to:
    – face reality
    – take charge
    – empower people (sounds like this Francis ad lib comment)
    – speed up
    – commit fully
    – accept ambiguity & uncertainty
    – manage your own morale
    – be a fixer, not a finger-pointer

    Reply
  5. Jack Rakosky

    The context of this is very important. He is speaking to young people full of energy which needs some constructive outlet.

    They are in Brazil where young people, and many others, have taken to the streets demanding social change. They are Argentines, who are always in competition with Brazil. As John Allen points out any gathering of Argentines of this magnitude in a different context would likely have been seen as an invasion!

    So where does the Pope point all that youthful energy for change. Back home to Argentina! A sigh of relief from the Brazilian president! Probably not a sigh of relief from the Argentinian president! Of course the Brazilians will figure out that Francis by implication might be encouraging Brazilians to do the same, i.e. get involved in their societies problems! So win, win for Francis. He’s given something to both sides of the Brazil problem (to which he alluded in the remarks).

    Then Francis further refines his vision and his targets. Start the reform with the church not with the government. Francis is certainly not suggesting anyone head for the barricades, either in Brazil or Argentina. He has been through that. But it is not a reformed church for the sake of church reform (all too often the limited goal of both conservative and progressive reformers); he wants a reformed church to get involved in society and tackle problems and begin changing things in the world as well as in the church.

    Reply
  6. John Swencki

    An optional instruction/homily to confirmands at the Confirmation Mass invites the (young) people to “go out and set the world on fire”.
    Obviously, it did not mean to get matches and gasoline.
    I believe Francis desire the kind of mess that only a world on fire with the love of God can create.

    Reply
  7. Fr. Ron Krisman

    Does anyone know where the Spanish text can be found?

    Thanks.

    Reply
  8. Pádraig McCarthy

    The text of the speech to the youth of Argentina is listed at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/travels/2013/papa-francesco-gmg-rio-de-janeiro-2013_en.htm
    It’s there with other items on the itinerary; now also in English and other languages. Whether the versions other than Spanish sterilise the impact, judge for yourself.
    He uses the Spanish word “lío” five times in the second and third paragraphs:
    “Quisiera decir una cosa: ¿qué es lo que espero como consecuencia de la Jornada de la Juventud? Espero lío. Que acá adentro va a haber lío, va a haber. Que acá en Río va a haber lío, va a haber. Pero quiero lío en las diócesis, quiero que se salga afuera… Quiero que la Iglesia salga a la calle, quiero que nos defendamos de todo lo que sea mundanidad, de lo que sea instalación, de lo que sea comodidad, de lo que sea clericalismo, de lo que sea estar encerrados en nosotros mismos.
    “Las parroquias, los colegios, las instituciones son para salir; si no salen se convierten en una ONG, y la Iglesia no puede ser una ONG. Que me perdonen los Obispos y los curas, si algunos después le arman lío a ustedes, pero.. Es el consejo. Y gracias por lo que puedan hacer. ”
    The Italian version of this has”chiasso” three times, then”facciate sentire” and then “confusione”.
    The English version offers “noise” three times, then “make yourselves heard”, and then “confusion”. It seems as if the English translation was made from the weaker Italian rather than from Spanish, which I think is closer to “kick up a fuss!”
    He comes back in the third last paragraph before the prayer with “Pero no se olviden: Hagan lío”: “Don’t forget: kick up a fuss!”, and again the Italian and English translations tame the language to “fattevi sentire” and “make yourselves heard”.
    I like what comes next: “No licuen la fe”: The English is a watery: : “Do not water down the faith”. But in Italian, it is “non frullate la fede”! Don’t liquidise the faith to a fruit drink!

    Reply
    1. Fr. Ron Krisman

      @Pádraig McCarthy – comment #10:

      Thanks, Pádraig.

      I wanted the Spanish to order to see the word Pope Francis used that has been translated “mess.”

      As you already stated, he used “lío,” a word whose first definition is used in South America for a “truss” made of rope. It can also mean “bundle.” Colloquial meanings are: fuss, muddle, mix-up. It’s also used for an amorous affair, a piece of gossip, and for getting into trouble.

      But Francis used the word – I would imagine intentionally – as a play on words: he said he wanted a “lío” in “Río.”

      I agree with you. “Kick up a fuss” is perhaps a better English translation than either “mess” or “noise.”

      Reply
      1. John Swencki

        @Fr. Ron Krisman – comment #13:
        http://wydcentral.org/i-want-the-church-to-go-into-the-streets/
        As Padraig noted, the translator here used the expression, “Make a fuss”.

  9. Vic Romero

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/july/documents/papa-francesco_20130725_gmg-argentini-rio_en.html

    Reply
  10. Doug O’Neill

    By “making a mess,” did he mean what we colloquially say in English as “getting our hands dirty” – that is, actually going out into the world and actively working with the poor? That would seem to fit with the context and the audience to whom he was speaking. It’s also not clear in the English what “these” refers to – the “parishes, schools, structures”?

    Reply
  11. Andrew rex

    have you seen this….?

    Bringing the Liturgy Back to the Real Vatican II
    Cardinal Burke Comments on Sacra Liturgia Conference

    The abuses of the sacred liturgy that followed the reforms of the Second Vatican Council are “strictly correlated” with a great deal of moral corruption that exists in the world today, says Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke.

    Reply
  12. Stanislaus Kosala

    Funny, a “mess” is exactly how i’d describe the church in the last years of John Paul II and throughout Benedict’s pontificate. With each new pope we basically reinvent the papacy now.

    Reply
  13. Ken Ray

    Sorry, but this sounds like a “revised” ICEL translation with all the attendant problems due to LA.

    What was said/ment and what was posted in English are relatively different concepts.

    Reply
  14. Jeffrey Tucker

    This is probably what he meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

    Reply
  15. Joe O’Leary

    Francis is a pastoral pope, and when he talks of “lio” he is saying something like “get out of your sheltered enclaves and go among the people, among those who need to hear the gospel in word and deed”.

    This pastoral renewal does not necessarily entail change in church teachings or structures; Francis may bring some changes on the level of structures, perhaps strengthening the synod — but we have little to go on here; on the level of teaching his silence about some litmus test issues might indicate some openness to dialogue, but the CDF is still in Ratzingerian hands and silenced theologians have not been reinstated. Will this change?

    Reply
  16. Jack Rakosky

    Actually Francis packed a lot into this speech:

    1. In his making “a mess, a noise” portion he reiterated a favorite theme of his that the church becomes sick, self referential when it becomes an NGO

    The parishes, the schools, the institutions are made for going out … if they don’t, they become an NGO, and the Church cannot be an NGO. May the bishops and priests forgive me if some of you create a bit of confusion afterwards. That’s my advice. Thanks for whatever you can do.

    In the Vibrant Parish Life Study all the items which relate to the parish as a non-profit
    (Encouragement to become involved in parish ministries,
    Invitation of members to share the responsibility of leadership,
    An annual stewardship appeal, asking for time, talent, and treasure,
    Annually publishing a parish financial statement)
    are ranked in the bottom ten in importance by the people.

    “Outreach to the poor” was ranked among the top ten items by the people.

    I think Francis is very much in tune with the people and that he knows that many bishops and priests are going to have to change.

    2. He gave the message of solidarity of “old” and “young” that he spoke about on the plane trip down to Rio.

    Look, at this moment, I think our world civilization has gone beyond its limits, it has gone beyond its limits because it has made money into such a god that we are now faced with a philosophy and a practice which exclude the two ends of life that are most full of promise for peoples. They exclude the elderly, obviously. You could easily think there is a kind of hidden euthanasia, that is, we don’t take care of the elderly; but there is also a cultural euthanasia, because we don’t allow them to speak, we don’t allow them to act. And there is the exclusion of the young. The percentage of our young people without work, without employment, is very high and we have a generation with no experience of the dignity gained through work.

    This is certainly a profound message that goes far beyond the standard criticism of legal abortion and euthanasia, or even the “culture of death” message.

    3. He wrapped everything in the spirituality of the poor that comes out of liberation theology.

    Faith in Jesus Christ is not a joke, it is something very serious. Secondly: do not “water down” your faith in Jesus Christ. The Beatitudes: What must we do, Father? Look, read the Beatitudes: that will do you good. If you want to know what you actually have to do, read Matthew Chapter 25, which is the standard by which we will be judged. With these two things you have the action plan: the Beatitudes and Matthew 25. You do not need to read anything else.

    These were the central texts in Gutierrez course on the spirituality of the poor.

    Reply
  17. Paul Schlachter

    If the pope meant to express one of the Lord’s parables (kokkos sinapeos – mustard seed) in modern idiom, he hit the bull’s eye. Allusions to beauty in the Gospels? Cedars of Lebanon or such noblest trees? Those befitted Solomon in all his glory. Yes, the disciples marveled at the beauty of the temple, just as we often do. But not the Lord. As Father Anthony says, there is something different happening and all of us have to take notice and act.

    Reply
  18. Lee Bacchi

    Someone made a comment somewhere about how “lio” rhymes with Rio. I htink Francis meant to shake things up, to start some new apostolates, some new ministries, some new ways of evangelizing and caring.

    What does NGO stand for?

    Reply
  19. Fr. Ron Krisman

    Jeffrey Tucker : This is probably what he meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

    Sorry, Jeffrey, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean to say by your comment. Or was it just meant to be a contemporary equivalent of flashing a crowd?

    Reply
  20. Bill deHaas

    Non-governmental organization e.g. World Health Organization; OXFAM, Red Cross, etc. Use started at the United Nations.

    Reply
  21. Lee Bacchi

    Thanks for the clarification, Bill.

    I hope that in mentioning the Beatitudes, Francis meant all of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7). The Beatitudes are just the beginning!

    Reply
  22. Pádraig McCarthy

    A curious image near the end of the Copacabana speech:
    “Queridos jóvenes, por favor, no balconeen la vida, métanse en ella, Jesús no se quedó en el balcón, se metió, no balconeen la vida, métanse en ella como hizo Jesús.”
    The Italian version gives:
    “Cari giovani, per favore, non “guardate dal balcone” la vita, mettetevi in essa, Gesù non è rimasto nel balcone, si è immerso, non “guardate dal balcone” la vita, immergetevi in essa come ha fatto Gesù.”
    As I write, no English version on the website yet. The verb “balconeen” is not in my Spanish dictionary. Does it have a South American context?
    My rough translation:
    “Dear young people, please, do not be a spectator in life. Throw yourself in, Jesus did not stay in the balcony, he jumped in. Do not keep your life on the balcony, immerse yourself in it as Jesus did.”
    But perhaps that is the Liurgiam Authenticam version. I wonder could Francis have been thinking of another image. The venue had been changed from a field (which was waterlogged). He had told them: “Jesus offers us something bigger than the World Cup!” (to be played next year in Brazil), “no se metan en la cola de la historia. Sean protagonistas. Jueguen para adelante” – “don’t stay at the back of the history: be protagonists! Play in the forward line!”
    But then it was changed to Copacabana beach, a place where many go swimming. Perhaps Francis was been thinking:
    “Don’t teeter on the edge of the water/diving board. Have the courage to entrust your life to the water, as Jesus did!”

    Reply
  23. Fr. Ron Krisman

    From the dictionary of the Real Academia Española:

    balconear.
    1. tr. Arg. y Ur. Observar los acontecimientos sin participar en ellos.
    2. tr. Ur. Examinar una situación.
    3. intr. coloq. Arg., Guat., Hond., P. Rico y Ur. Mirar, observar con curiosidad desde un balcón o cualquier otro sitio elevado. U. t. c. tr.

    So this is a verb used in the Americas. Watching without getting involved

    BTW, this is an online dictionary that I consult often:

    http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

    Reply
    1. Pádraig McCarthy

      @Fr. Ron Krisman – comment #28:
      Thanks, Ron. I was wrong (but the swimming in Copacabana is a pleasant thought!). So balconear means just being a spectator without being a participant.
      In Ireland we have an expression: “the hurler on the ditch”. Hurling is a very fast team field game here. The “ditch” (a raised area) was for the spectators before they had grandstands. The hurler on the ditch is a person who observes the game without participating, and shouts advice to the players as if knowing better about the game than those taking part!

      Reply
  24. Jonathan Day

    Ronald Heifetz, the Harvard professor who has written a lot about leadership, talks about the importance for every leader of “taking a trip up to the balcony”, i.e. getting far enough above the action “down on the dance floor” to observe patterns and decide what to do next. In business, things often move so quickly that leaders simply act without taking time to stop, observe and think about what’s really going on. A trip up to the balcony can add perspective and improve the chances of things changing in a positive way.

    But of course the balcony is only a temporary destination; you go up there to observe and reflect, then dive back into the action down on the floor. You can’t live on the balcony.

    Reply

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