It won’t go away, you know

by Chris McDonnell

The letter from Gerald O’Collins SJ, published recently in the Tablet Journal, has reignited the debate on the impact of the 2011 translation.

Foreign Secretary Gromyko, during the years of the USSR – Western standoff, is reputed to have told the US president during a discussion “But Mr President, I was there.” He had been around so long that he knew the detailed background to many conversations.

O’Collins speaks from a similar position of strength. His Open Letter to the Bishops comes after long years teaching in Rome, in many instances teaching as young men those who are now Bishops in the English-speaking world. He was in Rome during those critical post-Vatican II years and knows well the geography of the place. His plea that they listen to the needs of their people is a welcome voice of support for those who during the time since Advent 2011 have been expressing real concern over the text we have been given. Sacral style is one thing but appreciation of prayer in a language that is reasonable is something else. Prayer should be a welcome into an open space for listening, not a struggle to complete an obstacle course through a dense language jungle.

We have an alternative available in the 1998 text, already agreed by the English speaking bishops until they rolled over in the face of Vox Clara and accepted the present translation. O’Collins notes that “You all know that your Episcopal conferences approved a revised translation completed after 17 years work by the ICEL.” Maybe as a sign of Mercy in the coming designated year of Mercy, we will be freed from the yoke of language that rather than lead us to listen to the merciful Lord acts as a barrier on the way. One practical suggestion I came across on the net was that we should copy the Tablet letter, which is further strongly supported by the Tablet Editorial this week, and send it to our diocesan bishops. Just a thought.

Turning to another matter. It would appear that with the Autumn Synod on the family, moves are already under way in England to put in place a back stop to discussions. Two letters are in circulation signed by a dozen priests, one of which is shortly to be released to the press. They reinforce the traditional doctrines of marriage and sexuality. This coincides with a visit to the UK by Cardinal Raymond Burke when he said any shift in Church teaching on marriage and sexuality was “confused and erroneous.” Maybe this is a gathering of like-minded men who are fearful of reality and who just cannot adjust to a merciful Church that goes beyond the hardened black and white edges and attends to the needs of a pilgrim people. The link to the Tablet article can be found at here.

We are now into the start of the third year of the pontificate of Francis, Bishop of Rome. It has been a momentous period in the life of the Church. People ask when the tipping point comes, when the changes that have been introduced, be they organizational or cultural can no longer be reversed. In some instances that point has already been passed. Elsewhere, there is still a struggle in process to secure the foundations of the 21st Century Church.

Let me conclude with a quotation from Anthony Ruff OSB posted on Pray Tell. After the Papal Mass to mark the 50th anniversary of using the vernacular, Francis reportedly said: “Let us thank the Lord for what he has done in his Church in these 50 years of liturgical reform. It was truly a courageous gesture for the Church to draw near to the people of God so that they are able to understand well what they are doing. This is important for us, to follow the Mass in this way. It is not possible to go backwards. We must always go forward.”

Going forward is important; it is not possible to go back. Maybe we can recover from the stutter on our journey by picking up the threads of the 1998 text. We are where we are, let’s move on together in charity.

Chris McDonnell is a regular reader and commenter at Pray Tell.

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Comments

82 responses to “It won’t go away, you know”

  1. Brian Culley

    I thank God for Fr. O’Collins timely plea for common sense and mercy for the people in the pews and the celebrants of the Eucharistic. I pray that we may soon be able to pray in words that are beautiful and understandable. His article inspired me to acquire and read his interesting autobiography.

  2. @Chris McDonnell: Going forward is important; it is not possible to go back. Maybe we can recover from the stutter on our journey by picking up the threads of the 1998 text.

    So, it’s not possible to go back, unless we’re going back to party like it’s 1998, back to something you happen to like better. Erm… okay…?

    The letter from Gerald O’Collins SJ, published recently in the Tablet Journal, has reignited the debate on the impact of the 2011 translation.

    Only among the minority of people who don’t particularly like the current translation. The rest of us are either reasonably happy, or not bothered.

  3. John Drake

    Amen, Matthew Hazell!

  4. So, according to your conclusion, the way to go “always forward” is to first go back to 2011 and undue the process of implementing the corrected translation. Then, when we get back to 2011, we are supposed to go back to 1998 so we can “recover,” and THEN we will finally be ready to move “forward.” At least we’re all clear that we can’t go back.

  5. Chris McDonnell

    #2 You will see that I used the word “stutter” in the present process. No journey is straight forward. What Gerald O’Collins has drawn our attention to is a perfectly valid translation (1998) that the Bishops have already accepted until Vox Clara came along. The problem will not go away that easily

  6. Dillon Barker

    Speaking for myself, the feeling of having a yoke of language thrown off is what I experienced in Advent 2011 when the current translation went into effect.

    I’ll never forget hearing the Roman Canon on that day. I was moved to tears at the beauty of hearing the Mass in my own language for the first time.

    I pray God that the Hallmark greeting card 1998 “translation” (more like based upon rather than translated from) is as dead as the 1974 “Sacramentar[ies]” they were supposed to replace.

  7. Doug O'Neill

    Could we please cease this forward/backward stuff? Of course it’s impossible to go backward, unless we somehow subvert linear time (and it’s worth noting that God’s time is NOT linear – hmm…). Everything is forward. It’s just a matter of how people choose to proceed.

    1. @Doug O’Neill – comment #7:
      I agree. I think the key on how to proceed, regardless of how one feels about the translation, is to realize that the translation issue is dead for at least a generation. Of all the places to be focusing our efforts for a more fruitful participation in the liturgy, efforts at changing the texts are wasted time. Even if you could get a majority of bishops who thought the current translation is bad (which there isn’t) there is no way that they are going to go through this process of approving and implementing new translations again in their lifetime.

      In my mind, the bigger question for reform moving forward is what about translating the Church’s music for the liturgy into the vernacular. This requires artistry of a much greater degree than simply translating the spoken texts of the Missal. We’ve been substituting “other liturgical songs” for the proper chants of the Mass for too long. How can we place all this fuss on the wording of the collect, which no one will remember in any translation by the time the first reading starts, but then sing non-approved theologically problematic texts, substituted for Sacred Scripture, which everyone will remember?

      Forget about translating the usually spoken parts of the Mass. It’s done. Translating the proper music of the Mass is just starting to really ramp up and looks very promising. There’s something worth the effort.

      1. Paul R. Schwankl

        @Fr. Shawn P. Tunink – comment #9:
        “How can we place all this fuss on the wording of the collect, which no one will remember in any translation by the time the first reading starts . . .”
        I know priests who consider collects liturgically and spiritually important and who therefore strive mightily to make the current ones intelligible. But here’s Father Tunink saying that it’s not worth the effort.
        I find the cynicism there pretty distressing—scandalizing, even.

  8. Fr Kurt Barragan

    This post reflects on two open letters (one of them not yet published). I mostly disagree with the contents of one and broadly agree with the contents of the other. Both deserve to be considered respectfully rather than dismissed out of hand.

    I was sad to see that “The Tablet” had reported on the letter on the family at this stage. In doing so, it publicised the contents of a letter between priests that was clearly marked “confidential.” I can see that the topic is newsworthy but I would have hoped that confidential correspondence could be respected.

    The purpose of the synod process is journeying together in reflection, discernment and discussion on a matter of great importance – the family. It is only reasonable that priests who have, after much thought and prayer, formed a view on some of these questions should share that view with those who will be at the synod in October. Since the discussion of these issues is very widespread, it also seems reasonable to make those views public.

    I was invited to sign the letter and, after some time in prayer, decided to do so. It was not phrased exactly as I would like but I felt that its central points – re-affirming commitment to the Church’s doctrine and stressing that doctrine and good pastoral care are not enemies – echoed my own feelings. I hesitated only because I realised that by signing the letter, I ran the risk of being caricatured as hard-hearted, lacking concern for those who have experienced marital breakdown, somehow rebellious against authority or some sort of right-wing ultra-traditionalist monster. But, in the end, I felt that human respect is a terrible reason not to act. I can only hope that those who know me will acknowledge that I am none of those things.

    Please don’t write off everyone who disagrees with you as members of some fearful closed circle. Dialogue is impossible if we don’t respect one another. Whatever our opinions may be, I hope that we can be united in prayer for families and for the Pope, the Bishops and the whole Church.

  9. Rita Ferrone Avatar
    Rita Ferrone

    When more than 50% of the clergy dislike the new translation, and yes a dissatisfied 30% in the pews is not a small matter either, I think it’s rather putting one’s head in the sand to just say “It’s done for a generation” and “Nothing more can be done.” Or, rather, it’s speaking out of complete unconcern because you yourself have gotten it the way you like it. Other people are dissatisfied. That’s a concern. What is being proposed is not such a radical suggestion. The 1998 is a good translation. The Church should be allowed to use it. Shelving it and replacing it with a translation that has been deeply divisive has not solved anything. It has only made things worse.

    There have been groups much smaller than this catered for in the church on every other liturgical issue. Why not allow the 1998 translation? What harm would it do? We’ve got Anglican rites and the 1962 missal, and Latin and the vernacular separate and mixed, and Eastern rites, and multi-lingual liturgy, and children’s liturgy, and youth liturgy. But somehow using the 1998 translation is going to ruin everything? Sorry, that’s just not a reasonable position to take after you’ve allowed everything else as has been allowed and even encouraged in recent years.

  10. Rita Ferrone Avatar
    Rita Ferrone

    There’s a parish in my diocese that never adopted 1973. All those years, it had its own translation. Somehow the sky didn’t fall.

  11. Fr. Jack Feehily

    Perhaps its still early in the life of this string, but it would appear that those often called “revanchists” are taking PT over. I’m in favor of modifying Fr. O’Collins proposal by requesting permission of the bishops for priests to use the collects and eucharistic prayers from 1998 while leaving the 2011 people’s parts as is. Many of us are using the Apostles’ Creed and the people have adjusted to the less than elegant translation of the Gloria and the absolutely gratuitous change to the Holy. The advantage of the 1998 translation is that it uses “elevated” language while still employing English word order. Its offering of opening prayers for each year of the lectionary cycle is also a big advantage. I’m grateful that there is a little volume of those still available. While I have the 1998 translation it is in a format that is difficult to use–for a study in contrast of course.

    1. @Fr. Jack Feehily (#12): Its offering of opening prayers for each year of the lectionary cycle is also a big advantage.

      Funny, because that also happens to be one of the main reasons it was rejected by Rome! (Equally, it’s a big reason why all this return-to-1998 talk is, frankly, deluded and fantastical.)

      IMO, most of the original prayers in the 1998 translation are terrible, and I wouldn’t consider a three-year cycle of Mass propers to be a “big advantage”, or even desirable in any way. The post-conciliar lectionary is problematic enough as it is (and I’m well aware that’s a minority opinion!).

      1. Nathan Chase

        @Matthew Hazell – comment #13:
        You and Rome might see it as a disadvantage, but that is just one perspective, albeit influential. What is so inherently wrong about having well composed prayers that correspond more or less to the lectionary readings? Many of our prefaces already correspond to the feasts of the day, and therefore the lectionary. If they were more broadly constructed, they could also provide more prayer texts for the weeks of ordinary time, in which the repetition of prayer texts at daily Mass can become quite monotonous.

      2. @Nathan Chase (#16): If they were more broadly constructed, they could also provide more prayer texts for the weeks of ordinary time, in which the repetition of prayer texts at daily Mass can become quite monotonous.

        With respect, on a ferial day in tempus per annum, a priest has a choice of any of the following sets of texts (cf. GIRM 355, 363, 375, 377, 381):

        * any one of the 34 Sundays/weeks per annum
        * the optional memorial (if there is one)
        * any of the Masses for Various Needs and Occasions
        * any of the Votive Masses
        * a “daily” Mass for the Dead (bearing in mind that the rubrics allow one to mix and match the Mass propers: e.g., collect and super oblata from III.A.1, postcommunion from III.B.3)
        * a Mass for any saint inscribed in the Martyrology for that day, using the relevant Common (within which texts can be mixed in the same way they can with Masses for the Dead)

        Yet, seemingly, your answer to the ‘problem’ of monotonous repetition is more choice of texts? Perhaps the reason that priests tend to repeat the propers of the Sunday during weeks per annum is because there is already too much choice!

      3. @Nathan Chase (#16): What is so inherently wrong about having well composed prayers that correspond more or less to the lectionary readings?

        One reason that springs to my mind is related to GIRM 15 and the sources of the post-conciliar Missal. As much as I personally have serious reservations about the manner in which prayers from the ancient sacramentaries were edited, rearranged and repurposed by the Consilium, it is notable that the Proper of Time contains hardly any newly-composed prayers. For instance, of the postcommunion prayers in the Proper of Time, nearly 75% of them have as their source either the previous Roman Missal, the Gelasian Sacramentary or the Veronese (Leonine) Sacramentary; only 2% are new compositions.

        For the Proper of Time, the texts that are most regularly used, it is right and proper that there should be such a strong (in theory) textual link to the liturgical tradition and past liturgical books. It is key to forming the faithful in the spirit of the liturgy and the Christian life, in continuity with our forebears in the faith. This is not as pressing a need for, e.g., Masses for Various Needs and Occasions, a section of the Missal that has a far higher proportion of newly-composed texts.

        So, allowing the very wide use of newly-composed texts during the Proper of Time, as the 1998 Missal proposed, strikes me as a very large textual step away from the liturgical tradition of the Church. All this adds to the question of how such a Missal would maintain the substantial unity of the Roman rite (cf. SC 38) if a large part of the English-speaking world chose not to pray the per annum collects found in the Latin typical edition and in the various other vernacular translations.

    2. Nathan Chase

      @Fr. Jack Feehily – comment #12:
      and Fr. Shawn

      Fr. Jack, I think your proposition is the most reasonable position for those who seek to replace the 2011 translation. The people’s parts are here to stay, at least for a generation as Fr. Shawn notes. However, I disagree with Fr. Shawn’s comment that a new translation of the “priest’s parts” is a generation out. Rather, I think something along the lines of your proposal, Fr. Jack, is possible. In my opinion the 1998 translation is a good starting point, but for a minority of people it comes with the same baggage as the 2011 translation. I also think that as a living language our vernacular translations must be regularly updated. This can and will be done exactly as you have outlined, leaving the “people’s parts” as is.

      I am torn in my opinion about how the 2011 translation is received by the people in the pews. Quite frankly a think the vast majority of people don’t pay much attention to the “priest’s prayers” at all. For them the switch, and a possible switch again, makes no difference. Perhaps I am cynical. I think this is an issue for a very small group of people because I think few people carefully listen to the prayer texts. I do think, however, that the 2011 translation is less accessible and its archaic language has led to an increase in the number of people who no longer pay attention to the prayer texts. For this reason I think the 2011 translation is problematic.

      I agree, Fr. Shawn, that to some degree we have bigger fish to fry than the translation in and of itself. We have to figure out a way to re-engage people in the liturgy and Church life. But the translation of the Mass IS one piece of the puzzle, which in my opinion has lead people to disengage from the liturgy. I commend those who wish to translate the Church’s repertoire of chant into the vernacular. However, to suggest that this would replace hymnody in our churches is wishful thinking and would alienate more people.

      1. Doug O'Neill

        @Nathan Chase – comment #16:
        Please don’t tell Fr. Columba Kelly that we shouldn’t be adapting chant into the vernacular, because that has pretty much been his life’s work. Of course, he is in the rarified world of a Benedictine community, not a parish. However, I disagree that it is just wishful thinking to introduce vernacular chant into the parishes. It has been done successfully, and it is happening more and more. It’s more of an issue of how it is presented pastorally. We are in the midst of doing it more in our parish (not to the exclusion of hymnody, mind you). Yes, it is alienating some people. It’s also drawing in some people, and increasing the depth of faith of some parishioners. We’re going to keep at it. Who knows – they may run me out of town. But we’re going to keep at it, because I’m gambling that it will be accepted in the long run, and that it will enrich the life of our parish. My standard response to those who complain is: “Are you allowing your heart and mind to fully enter into the wonderful richness of these texts?”

      2. Nathan Chase

        @Doug O’Neill – comment #17:
        I should clarify, Doug. I enjoy Gregorian chant in Latin or English. Fr. Shawn’s comment that “we’ve been substituting ‘other liturgical songs’ for the proper chants of the Mass for too long” seems to suggest that these “other liturgical songs” should be entirely replaced by vernacular chant. To make the majority of the music at a typical Sunday Mass chant would IMO be alienating to most people. I stand behind the introduction of more chant, but not if it leads to the elimination of all, or even most, hymnody at Mass.

        As a disclaimer: I also grew up Lutheran, so hymnody means more to me than Roman chant because it was the musical patrimony that I grew up with. (I can feel the horror shudder through the thread!)

      3. Doug O'Neill

        @Nathan Chase – comment #19:
        Thanks for the clarification. At the risk of continuing off-topic: I, too, am a convert. I grew up Presbyterian, worked for various Protestant churches, became enamored of the “sacramental” church with the Episcopalians, and was eventually hired by a Catholic church. Somehow it stuck. I, too, was used to strong congregational singing, and I still miss it. But more and more, I have come to believe that hymns are just not endemic to the Roman Catholic Mass. They don’t fit – with one exception: the song of praise after communion, because that’s the one place where a song doesn’t cover any liturgical action, and is able to stand on its own. The documents’ teaching about how to introduce singing is wise: basically, first the dialogues, then the Ordinary. At first, leave the changing parts to the choir that actually rehearses ahead of time. That’s pretty sensible if you are trying to gradually build up congregational singing.
        There was much laudable about how the Lutheran Reformation implemented change, that Catholics should have followed. Luther celebrated both the Latin High Mass, with Latin chant, and the vernacular low Mass, with more congregational singing. He adapted much Latin chant into metrical German. He, and many other accomplished poets and musicians, wrote quality vernacular music for the people. They managed to do something drastically new, without throwing out the past.
        Truth be told, if it were the church of Doug O’Neill (which will never happen, and it shouldn’t!), I would have the choir sing the Latin introit, offertory, and communion; various quality congregational settings of the Ordinary in rotation, both chant and metrical, a thoroughly sung Mass with good congregational singing of the responses, and a great hymn at the song of praise after communion.
        I also wish that introducing chant would not be seen as “regressive.” It’s not at all; it’s exciting, rich, vibrant, and challenging. It’s a new, not…

      4. Jordan Zarembo

        @Doug O’Neill – comment #27:

        Doug: He, and many other accomplished poets and musicians, wrote quality vernacular music for the people. They managed to do something drastically new, without throwing out the past.

        Quite the opposite. While Luther did not, for the most part, change the order of the medieval Mass, he destroyed the offertory and Canon. He reduced the Canon to qui pridie and simili modo (the Words of Institution, the verba). For Luther, the Eucharist promises a forgiveness of sins which is the grace of the sacrifice of Calvary but not the Cross re-presented on an altar. This is quite, quite different than the Mass, in which the representation the Cross is unbloody but identical to Calvary, identical in its grace and propitiation.

        The issue of whether or not to use any translation pales again the loss of a thoroughgoing Catholic understanding of the eucharistic sacrifice. Few priests preach on the doctrine, even on Corpus Christi. The “proclamation ability” and other pseudo-scientific metrics mask a disbelief in the transformative power of Mass and grace. It is here where the impoverishment is greatest, because we would rather bicker over imaginary castles of a church which conforms itself to secular expectations, rather than to the sacrifice only.

      5. Doug O'Neill

        @Jordan Zarembo – comment #34:
        Jordan, thanks for pointing out the theological difference – always something to learn. I was thinking from a strictly musical perspective.

  12. Doug O'Neill

    Why is the part about the Synod on the Family in this post? Isn’t this supposed to be a liturgy forum? And isn’t it dangerous to conflate the two issues?

  13. Scott Pluff

    I second the idea that Catholics in the pews pay little attention to the presidential prayers, except when the presider stumbles and stutters all over the place trying to proclaim these texts that sometimes make no sense in the English language. So at best, they are liturgical wallpaper. At worst, people perk up and wonder, “What’s wrong with Father? He can’t get the words out today.”

    If we’re going to name things that are “dead for at least a generation,” let’s put the Reform of the Reform at the top of that list. Talk about yesterday’s news…

  14. Rita Ferrone

    The people’s parts are not so much loved or ingrained after two years that you couldn’t change them. And there are some sound reasons to retrieve the ones that were chucked. Remember the common texts for ecumenical use? I am in ecumenical situations where everyone (but the Catholics) are saying “And also with you.” It’s a sad reminder that we had something good and traded it in for something that would break it up, and assure that Catholics couldn’t pray with others as they had. Then, the number of people who are muttering the “under my roof” business confusedly continues. The Gloria is clunky. The Creed is not declaimed well by congregations. “Holy” in “holy church” is never said, anywhere I go to Mass. I don’t think this is such a big success that it must be at all costs preserved. What is being preserved by keeping these texts is, I think, keeping up appearances. The bishops need a fig leaf.

    1. Nathan Chase

      @Rita Ferrone – comment #20:
      I too lament the loss of the common texts for ecumenical use, and I am not saying that the people’s parts are much loved either. However, I think trying to switch back to the old parts at this point would cause too much confusion. Living through the nightmare of changing the people’s parts was frustrating and exhausting to everyone. I wouldn’t want to go through that again as a liturgist or a parishioner.

      The only reason why I do not advocate for the return to the old people’s parts is out of practicality. But that is just my opinion and my desire to not go through the process again. Of course the fact is nothing is going to be ideal at this point…

      1. Doug O'Neill

        @Nathan Chase – comment #21:
        I agree. The former ecumenical cooperation was a good thing, and I miss it (mostly because I can no longer steal really good congregational Ordinary settings by the Lutherans and Episcopalians). I like the new Gloria, and think the main issues are not with the text, but with so many skill-less musical settings of it. I love the “and with your spirit.” I thought the “under your roof” thing was going to be weird, but have gotten used to it. I have also found that people have adapted more easily than Rita has observed, and it would be counter-productive to give up on them at this point. But many of the presidential prayers are clunky English. That’s something they can change, without inflicting pain on parishioners.

  15. Karl Liam Saur

    A lot of this depends on one’s circles. We’re now in the fourth year of the new translation. Of all the changed parts to the people’s parts, the Creed has taken the longest, but now those relying on cards are often in a minority.

    I even hear “holy church” in the pre-preface prayer more often than not, especially in very ordinary suburban parishes in metro Boston and Long Island. (I was rather shocked to hear my 90-year old father say it with no text in front of him this past Sunday.)

    Remember, almost all of the people’s parts are what was used in English version of the so-called interim Missal of 1965-70, the first vernacular Mass. (The opening line of the Gloria uses “people” rather than “men” now.)

    And FWIW there are now people who’ve never experienced the 1970/75 Missal translations, only the 2011 translation.

    And it’s not like the 1998 Sacramentary did not propose any changes to the people’s parts: rather astonishingly, it proposed an alternative translation of the Our Father. How that might have been imposed on people rather boggles the mind. (Hey, I understand the translation issue, but I also understand that the people have used the customary rendering of the Our Father for generations in a way that they “own” it like no other text in the Missal, so it would hardly be pastoral to foist another rendering on them. I am sensitive to this because I have vivid memories of having to re-learn prayers during pre-Confirmation classes in 1972 that I had learned in preparation for First Communion in 1968-69, and the arbitrariness of the changes was rather palpable and somewhat mocked by my confreres at the time.)

    I am strongly in favor of revisiting the collects of the 2011 translation, particularly Latinate syntax and lazy Latinate cognates. I have less trouble with texts that are likely to be repeated with some frequency and have a chance to percolate over time – those texts can bear greater complexity better in hearing over time.

    Permitting the 1998 translation WILL be divisive.

    1. Rita Ferrone

      @Karl Liam Saur – comment #22:
      The changes to the Our Father were voted down. How did you come upon the information that this was going to change, Karl? The desire not to change the people’s parts was a big deal, something the bishops wanted and got.

      1. Karl Liam Saur

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #23:
        My memory must be faulty in that regard, and I stand corrected. Thank you.

  16. The new translation has its pros and cons. Is it THE answer? Probably not. Is 1998 the answer? Again, pros and cons. I recall viewing the 1998 translation years ago (a professor of mine had a copy). It was, in all respects an improvement over what was in place. Is it the solution to the issues around the new translation? That’s an open question. This said, the 2010/2011 translation is the third example of the Roman Church pretty much going it alone as regards English translation. It would have made sense to lean on the work of the Anglican Church (making modification where need be) given that they have experience using the English language in worship for, what, some five centuries? At the very least, the Anglican texts would be worth using as a reference the next go around – I think it likely we’ll see a fourth translation before we see 1998 replace 2011.

    Another point to consider: a Catholic Worker friend of mine made a sobering observation. How much money was spent on producing the 1998 translation (including lodging, travel, etc)? How much on producing the 2011 translation (including lodging, travel, etc)? How much was spent on new books? How much of this money could have been directed elsewhere? It’s a sobering thought. I don’t have an answer for it – but any time I get in a huff about whatever translation issue, I remind myself of these questions. I’d wager all of these translations didn’t come cheap – I could be wrong. I hope to high heaven they’ve been worth the expense.

    1. Reyanna Rice

      @Joseph Villecco – comment #24:
      The other question to ask in your string of questions about costs is Who benefited from all that money spent?

  17. Emelia Junk

    From a “person in the pew” opinion . . . I am ecstatic that there is discussion and the possibility of the 1998 Sacramentary being given to the people for prayer. The present Roman Missal leads me often to tears and disappointment from our Church leaders. Please, prayer that I can address our God in words that both sides can easily relate to and find hope in . and words that respect ecumenical efforts [Rita, I use personally the Lord’s Prayer from the common texts.] A move to the “1998” might well be radical for the people . . . but … I sadly find the church “exit” doors currently much more worn than the “entrance” doors. . . . so what is there to lose . . . Thank you and On, Father O’Collins!!

  18. As scholars of the Sacred Liturgy, I and those in this thread might find it enjoyable or even important to engage in the kind of thought experiments proposed here. We can break out into pros and cons for Comme le Prevoit vs. Liturgiam Authenticam and talk of the “1998 translation.” At some point though, I at least find myself having to take a step back and realize what a tiny little niche we are. The number of people in the country who would even know what the “1998 translation” is could fit into a room. We are liturgy nerds.

    Now, there’s nothing wrong with being a liturgy nerd. However, not everyone is like us. Most especially, almost no bishops are liturgy nerds. Most were not looking forward to the idea of creating the new translation, or any changes in the liturgy for that matter. Liturgy is just not the top priority of most bishops (which I know brings a tear to the eyes of us here, but that’s another discussion).

    When I have asked bishops personally and asked them for a sense of the conference, what I hear overwhelmingly is that they were glad to be done with liturgical changes. Even the bishops that disliked the final result said that the only idea they disliked more was the idea of having to spend more meetings going over liturgical texts to fix them. Most are actually satisfied and even happy with the result. No matter who you talk to, they will tell you that there is almost no support in the conference for altering the Roman Missal again any time soon.

    There will be another new translation some day; this is part of having a vernacular liturgy. Translation principles are thus still worthy of debate. However, for we few, the questions is, “How much time do we want to spend on hypothetical debates concerning things that will never effect the Church in our lifetime?” The majority of people in the world who think the 1998 translation could replace the current one are probably reading this thread. What if we gave translation a rest? Are there other things we can do that matter right now?

    1. David Jaronowski

      @Fr. Shawn P. Tunink – comment #32:

      Father Shawn, while I do understand your larger point, I must say that we, as liturgists, should not be dismissive of ourselves, even in a modest and self-deprecating way.

      The fact is, how many people in the Church or on this board can discuss at length the intricacies of canon law and some minute question of definitions? But there are canon lawyers who can and do, and some are bishops. Are they “canon law nerds?”

      Similarly, what about the moral theologian who can get into a 4 hour discussion on some extremely fine and narrow difference between the philosophies of two moral theologians whom even most bishops have never heard of? Are they “theology nerds?”

      There’s nothing wrong with being a through expert in your chosen field/area.

      While I’m the first person to agree (and often point out) that liturgy isn’t the only concern or even the most important concern of Church life at any given time, I certainly don’t see any value in actually talking about ourselves as though we are engaged in the pursuit of some archaic and meaningless work. Remember who it is that the bishops turn to when they have liturgical questions! And you see that with every area of Church life. We need experts in every area, because the bishop can’t possibly be an expert in all things.

      1. Scott Smith

        @David Jaronowski – comment #54:

        Are they “canon law nerds?”

        Ah, yes.

        Are they “theology nerds?”

        Ah, yes.

        There’s nothing wrong with being a through expert in your chosen field/area.

        Very true, but I suppose it is hard to have the proper perspective about ones own field/area. I certainly find it hard to do for mine.

        We need experts in every area, because the bishop can’t possibly be an expert in all things.

        And yet when Bishops tell us the problem we have in our area is perhaps not that big a deal in the larger context, they could well be right.

        And Pope Francis views on the liturgy seems to fit into this mold – He seems to think it is fine as it is, so we should all go and worry about something more important.

        Which seems to be a broad hint for both progressive and conservative liturgy nerds. Liturgical reform of any type is not on the agenda, either of a progressive or conservative nature.

  19. Todd Orbitz

    Well, wow. I guess sarcasm doen’t go over too well on this blog. Of course, it’s not my blog, so I respect the right of the owner to censor it however it pleaseth him.

    With that said, I find it interesting that people so interested in translation principles and so interested in the power of language seem to find nothing wrong with an author who refers to a group blithely as “gathering of like-minded men who are fearful of reality and who just cannot adjust to a merciful Church that goes beyond the hardened black and white edges and attends to the needs of a pilgrim people”.

    That’s all, just interesting.

  20. Jim Pauwels

    If the 1998 missal is to be reconsidered, surely the preliminary step would be to revoke (and/or replace) the liturgical laws for translation laid down in Liturgiam Authenticam. That doesn’t seem impossible.

  21. Paul Inwood

    A number of miscellaneous comments on what has been said above, in no particular order:

    (1) Liturgiam Authenticam will not be revoked. That is not Rome’s way. It can, and I hope will, be replaced, without mentioning it, in the same way that it replaced Comme le Prévoit without even mentioning that document’s existence.

    (2) Regarding the alternative text of the Lord’s Prayer that was included in 1998 Sacramentary (and it was only proposed as an alternative, not as the primary text), this was precisely because the huge majority of our non-catholic sister Churches use it. Ecumenical considerations were still on the table at that point in time. In fact it is not radically different from the archaic text we continue to use, the mostly minor changes relating to using “Your” instead of “Thy”, “today” instead of “this day”, etc. A significant number of Catholic churches used it, at least in the UK, and Gelineau produced a setting of it which was popular for a few years in the mid-1970s.

    (3) I’m with Rita at #20. I see no merit in perpetuating a frankly bad version of some of the Ordinary texts (the first two lines of the Gloria will never be rhythmically satisfactory however hard anyone tries, and “O God, almighty Father” will continue to sound precious) just for the sake of not changing the people’s parts yet again. And week by week I am surrounded by people who are still saying “And also with you”, “God of power and might” and slipping into the previous version of the Creed, so I don’t for one moment accept the argument that the change has “taken” in the pews. It hasn’t, and there is still a lot of anger around at what people feel is the prayer rug being pulled out from underneath them.

    (4) Those who advocate dumping hymns in favour of chants for the proper might want to spend some time thinking about how they define a hymn. For starters, a look at this video might be interesting: https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=qJwp3EiaoPc
    It’s an extended entrance procession of the entire assembly in Notre-Dame, Paris (where I had the privilege of playing less than a week ago), using a setting by Jean-Paul Lécot from the Lourdes repertoire, with text of the verses adapted for the Marian celebration. Any Gregorian antiphon + psalm would pale into insignificance by comparison in such a context. I believe there is room for a diversity of approaches, and limiting oneself to just one option is a mistake.

    1. Doug O'Neill

      @Paul Inwood – comment #37:
      Properly speaking, that is not actually a hymn. It is an antiphon-verse style in the spirit of the Graduale SImplex, and as such, it’s effective. I am tempted to agree that grand spaces like Notre Dame require a different approach, but on the other hand, they made chant work there for centuries.

      1. Paul Inwood

        @Doug O’Neill – comment #40:

        Properly speaking, that is not actually a hymn. It is an antiphon-verse style in the spirit of the Graduale SImplex,

        Of course, but I suspect that many people would think of it as a grand hymn with a refrain. My purpose was not to start debating the use of terms but to suggest that what is perceived as a “hymn” might include a broader spectrum of music than a simple strophic setting.

      2. Doug O'Neill

        @Paul Inwood – comment #48:
        True – although we should be careful about the nomenclature we use to avoid confusing the debate (this is, after all, a liturgy blog; nobody parses language better than liturgists). It’s not a matter of chant vs. hymnody, because one is a musical genre, and the other a literary form; there are of course historic chant hymns. Propers can be chant-based or metrical. Music can be tonal or modal. We can’t even really say that the propers and hymnody are opposed, as Chris Tietze’s introit paraphrases have shown us.

        You are right in that “hymnody” in a broad sense can refer to congregational song of many types. The Hymn Society certainly doesn’t exclude things from their workshops because they are technically not hymns, because they are devoted to all aspects of congregational song. However, I do think that for the purposes of discussion among those “in the know,” that we would do well to be specific about what we mean. Even the term “chant” can be confusing – as it is used in the Roman Missal, for instance, it refers to anything sung. Broadly, it refers to monophonic music, normally with free rhythm and modally based (although I even doubt that assertion consistently – is Veni Sancte Spiritus all of a sudden not chant when it is sung in isorhythms?), whether in Latin or the vernacular, historic or newly composed. Specifically, “chant” could refer to what we know as the misnomer Gregorian chant – the historic body of Latin monophonic repertoire.

        Perhaps there is no way we can be truly specific about what we intend without copious footnotes, but we can do better. I have been guilty of that myself, and promise to try to be clearer.

    2. Jack Wayne

      @Paul Inwood – comment #37:
      How is “O God, Almighty Father” precious? “Precious” gets thrown around a lot, yet I’ve never seen anything called “precious” that I would consider such. Felt banners with cute symbols are precious, for example.

      The few times I’ve attended the OF lately, I find myself to be the only one occasionally struggling with the ordinary.

  22. What I LOVE about this new translation is how it approaches art in the way that it RECOVERS lost words and forgotten meanings that were always there in the Latin.
    I will give you just three of those rich wonderful words that have been recovered.
    1.Oblation. This is a rich word that means much more than sacrifice.
    2.Consubstantial. The word says perfectly the truth that needs to be expressed. No other word will do.
    3.Concupisence. Perfect for Lent and so much richer than ‘guilty’ actually, I may have to look it up – what a great thing!!.
    I thought this reform of the liturgy thing was about going back to recover the original rite before it got all those barnacles stuck to it.

    1. Jonathan Day

      @Gregory Hamilton – comment #38:
      1. oblation — would you share what this means, beyond “sacrifice”? Clearly there is “much more”; I’m keen to hear your views.

      2. consubstantial — please explain how this is different to or richer than “of one being”. What have we been missing?

      3. concupiscence — first of all, the only place I can find this in the new Missal is in the Prayer of St Thomas Aquinas in the Thanksgiving After Mass, which is presumably applicable inside and outside of Lent. Second, “concupiscence” does not mean “guilty”, unless you adhere to certain Protestant traditions.

      But set all that aside; as you note, you may want to look up the word.

      The Latin is somewhat pleonastic: concupiscentiae et libidinis; the 1973 translation renders this as “evil passions”, and the new translation, “concupiscence and carnal passion.”

      Where else do you find concupiscence in the new Missal? I may have missed it. And what is the rich content that the new translation conveys that we lose in “evil passion”?

      Please, do enlighten us.

    2. Paul Inwood

      @Gregory Hamilton – comment #38:

      1.Oblation. This is a rich word that means much more than sacrifice.

      Actually, it means rather less than sacrifice. Literally, something that is brought or laid before someone or something.

      2.Consubstantial. The word says perfectly the truth that needs to be expressed. No other word will do.

      The problem before was the U.S.’s/ICEL’s usage of “one in being with the Father”, which rightly raised theological eyebrows. In the UK and Ireland the phrase was different: “of one being with the Father” which is perfectly fine. It would have been easy to change to that rendition instead of the gobbledygook word we now use which is, alas, meaningless to most.

      3.Concupisence. Perfect for Lent and so much richer than ‘guilty’ actually, I may have to look it up – what a great thing!!.

      When you do look it up, you’ll not only find the correct spelling but also that it has a specifically sexual connotation. It certainly doesn’t mean “guilt”.

      Those who love obfuscation and jargon in prayer texts are alive and well, alas. Ordinary people’s spirituality manages quite well without.

  23. @Paul Inwood (#37): In fact [the alternate Lord’s Prayer] is not radically different from the archaic text we continue to use

    Except for “Save us from the time of trial” in place of “and lead us not into temptation”, which is a pretty big departure.

    1. Paul Inwood

      @Matthew Hazell – comment #39:

      When ELLC came to look at revising the 1970 ICET text of the Our Father in 1988, they made this comment on the line you consider a “major departure” (it is, rather, a clarification, in my view):

      “Save us from the time of trial.” Two errors must be avoided in this line. The first is the misconception that God would “tempt” or entice people to evil, and the second is to think that the original Greek word peirasmos means “temptation” as it is meant today. The reference here is primarily eschatological—a petition for deliverance from the final “time of trial” which, in biblical thought, marks the last days and the full revelation of the anti-Christ. The peril envisaged is that of apostasy—the renunciation of the Christian faith in the time of suffering and persecution which is expected to herald the final triumph of God’s kingdom (Luke 22:31, 32, 40: Revelation 3:10). Yet a reference to any occasion of testing, including the lure to sin, is not excluded. Commenting on this line, Luther speaks of “despair, unbelief, and other great and shameful sins,” which is his way of saying that ultimately all sin is a failure of faith. The Consultation considered whether to restore the negative of the original by writing a more literal version of the Greek—“Do not bring us to a time of trial.” The practical problem of making a change at this stage, however, when many Churches have overcome the difficulty of adopting the ICET version, was too great to be countenanced. In the end, the Consultation was persuaded that the preposition “from” sufficiently conveyed the negative sense (compare “Do not let the children starve” and “Save the children from starving”), while avoiding the misleading inferences mentioned above. Attention was also given to a request that “from” be changed to “in.” Apart from weakening the negative force of the original, it was considered that “in” conveyed only one of the two principal meanings of the line, that is, either a request to be spared from coming to the time of trial or a request to be spared, when one is in a time of trial, from its effects, especially from apostasy.

  24. richard baker

    “Sacral style is one thing but appreciation of prayer in a language that is reasonable is something else. Prayer should be a welcome into an open space for listening, not a struggle to complete an obstacle course through a dense language jungle.”

    Speak for yourself…….I am not struggling…..Maybe you should work at it a little more!

  25. Chris McDonnell

    #41 Thank you Richard. My experience has taught me that the struggle in prayer is part of the difficult path of faith. I can only speak for myself but I do believe there are others who have found the same.
    The tone of many of these comments reflects the complexity of the issues that we face. Let’s do it together in charity

  26. “Properly speaking, that is not actually a hymn. It is an antiphon-verse style in the spirit of the Graduale SImplex, and as such, it’s effective. I am tempted to agree that grand spaces like Notre Dame require a different approach, but on the other hand, they made chant work there for centuries.”

    If you go to Notre Dame, mass there is always beautiful. And every Mass is full. Now those all can’t just be tourists, which kind of gives the lie to the idea that we always hear about France and Europe having no faith and never going to church.

    1. Paul Inwood

      @Gregory Hamilton – comment #43:

      If you go to Notre Dame, mass there is always beautiful. And every Mass is full. Now those all can’t just be tourists, which kind of gives the lie to the idea that we always hear about France and Europe having no faith and never going to church.

      In fact the statistics show that the vast majority of those attending Mass at Notre-Dame are tourists. The only times the Cathedral is reasonably full with practising Catholics is on special occasions such as military remembrance, and even then a proportion of those are only nominal Catholics. And there is still room for tourists to join in the splendiferousness. Sunday Mass without tourists (defined as people from outside Paris) would, it is estimated, leave the Cathedral only one-third full.

  27. Aaron Sanders

    1) Far too much of this debate is run on anecdotal evidence for the revanchist 1998ers to justify destabilizing the Church’s public prayer yet another time. For every complaint that “people in my parish seem constitutionally incapable of remembering to say ‘and with your spirit,'” one can easily find another that says “young and old alike in my decidedly ‘non-elite’ congregation made the shift without difficulty.” My own impression is that the translation reactionaries inhabit echo chambers where “most people I know” share their disaffection and thus amplify the lower level of overall discontent.

    2) Claims of 1998’s superiority rest upon controverted theories/methods of translation. It may be a better dynamic equivalent, but it is not a better strict correspondent (despite 2011’s own failures to live up to its supposed principle in that regard). Given that the Holy See opted to enforce more strict correspondence, the argument for 1998 is being made on the wrong level. 1998 is inferior when judged by the translation norms in force (i.e., a far cry better than the ’70s ICEL products, it still drops out units of meaning – especially modifiers – and simplifies what are in the original complex sentences), so the real argument to be had is about Liturgiam Authenticam, not the Roman Missal that came after it.

    3) As to Rita’s point about demonstrated, not-so-insignificant dislike of 2011, what assurance do we have that allowing 1998 will not spawn similar levels of negative reaction? What if, in a given parish that opted for 1998, 30% of the parishioners were upset to lose their 2011 texts? What about 25%? 20%? How will THEIR interests then be represented? Let’s also not forget the OF is a highly ‘clericalized’ rite – celebrants can impose their choices of options with impunity. So experiences teaches us to expect that some priests will opt for one translation when 90% of their parishioners prefer the other (this going both ways in the dispute). Options are not magic bullets for…

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Aaron Sanders – comment #44:

      Aaron: 1) Far too much of this debate is run on anecdotal evidence for the revanchist 1998ers to justify destabilizing the Church’s public prayer yet another time.

      “Revanchist” is a very strong word. Many Catholics who are interested in liturgy and practice do yearn for some ideal, and this is not easily discounted.

      Most who read PTB know that I am convinced that the reforms of 1969 were quite radical, destabilizing, and unnecessary. Yet, as can also be noticed on PTB, these reforms were and are welcomed by a significant segment, perhaps even the majority, of Roman Catholics. However, I would not hasten to call the later “revanchists”. Rather, traditionalists and other dissenters must realize that what they consider radical and unwarranted is welcome by others, and will develop with or without the consent of traditionalism or liturgical conservatism.

      1. Aaron Sanders

        @Jordan Zarembo – comment #55:

        I was just having a but of fun, Jordan. Fr. Feehily introduced “revanchist” to the thread as a label, it seemed, for those who support the translation status quo . . . which in some minds is considered a blast from the past of sacral style. Yet it’s already been pointed out that it’s odd to quote Francis on how “We must always go forward” and then plot that course forward through a revival of a translation dropped 17 years ago. 1998 is so far in the past, in fact, that it was never a present reality, if you catch my drift. So my use of revanchist and reactionary were simply playful ways of pointing out that, in this particular debate, the shoe is on the other foot, and if that shoe fits, one ought to wear it.

        Progress is a necessarily teleological term, and now it seems clear that we should all agree that sometimes the best way forward is to recover past losses (if this reversal directs us once again toward the desired end). We just happen to disagree about the end(s) toward which our efforts at liturgical improvement ought to tend.

      2. Jordan Zarembo

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #57:

        Aaron: Progress is a necessarily teleological term, and now it seems clear that we should all agree that sometimes the best way forward is to recover past losses (if this reversal directs us once again toward the desired end)

        Maybe. Perhaps it is better to think of the various liturgical factions within Roman Catholicism this way. Each faction drives around a unique ideological roundabout, continually re-examining and re-incorporating past memes. This series of “rediscovery” is actually a reinforcement of the status-quo of the faction. Each turn around the roundabout more deeply entrenches the hermeneutic of a faction.

        What is scarring the Roman rite is the contrary insistence of many within each faction that their development is teleological and not cyclical. “The traditionalists (as if all traditionalists are speaking with one voice) do not want to conform to the conciliar documents.” et tu? The support of many for a sacramentary which strongly deviates from the reformed Missale Romanum is likewise a radical turn from conciliar thought.

  28. Bill deHaas

    Paul – Laura (my team member) and her granddaughter, Ashley, said you were wonderful on the Bishop Lynch choir tour.

    Some suggestions and please poke holes in this:
    – isn’t this whole discussion really about English speaking conferences only? Have any significant languages other than English acted on LA?
    – Following Francis’ decisions and words to date – wouldn’t it be consistent to allow the English speaking conferences to make their own determinations in terms of 1998 or whatever (start with presider parts – then, people) and allow conferences that use the English translation to make their own decisions (LA apparently doesn’t work well for Japan, etc.)
    – then, revisit LA – it appears that there is an overwhelming consensus among the translation and scriptural experts that LA is bad policy. Allow them to formulate a new CLP going forward and then make it clear that episcopal conferences need to make these decisions (not some Vox Clara group with an ideology (doesn’t Francis also talk about ideology driven projects?).
    – Francis also has articulated that liturgy needs to start with the *holy faithful people*…..too many of the comments above appear removed from the pews; ivory tower ruminations; self-reverential (oh yeah, Francis says something about that also)
    – sorry, agree with Rita – some argued that the 2011 would be quickly learned by the pew sitters – now they argue that we can’t change because they will not easily pick up the change – really? So you were for it before you were against it?

    Any way, just some idle thoughts.

  29. Translation norms implanted by LA basically repeat the conventional literal translation practice into Latin followed since antiquity – compare Hebrew and Greek scripture passages with the Vulgate versions, for example.

    The current pope will not take a significant initiative in an area that continues to be dear to the heart of his predecessor, who is very much alive and can keep himself up to date on church affairs.

    The bishops of the English-speaking world for the most part acquiesced and will continue to acquiesce in a centralized management of translations, unless driven to the wall by the faithful. That outcome is less likely than being hit by an asteroid. As far as people in our diocese are concerned, the latest version of responses came as an order from on high that we were to follow without question.

    For all his centralizing wishes and efforts, the previous pope presided over multiple authorized versions of mass prayers, reviving in the process at least one version that to all intents and purposes had been officially abrogated. I won’t even mention the dozens of mass propers that were written, marketed and adopted as a result.

    So, if I think the latest version is a step backwards toward irrelevance, what do I do in the face of these readings of the tea leaves? I could acquiesce, knowing and understanding Latin as well as anyone posting here – but not as my mother tongue, so I don’t. I could go apophatic (effective for individuals and very small groups but deadly for Sunday congregations). I could whisper my own response at certain less central moments (e.g. the “Pray brothers and sisters”). I could suffer temporary laryngitis, obeying the letter if not the spirit of the changes (e.g. “And with you[r spirit]”). Finally, I could pray as I do for a rapid and effective globalization of Roman-rite Catholicism in which the Latin language becomes a more remote measure of our commonality. This trend is the most likely of all those I have mentioned here

  30. Rod Hall

    As a reader of this blog for some three years who does not comment, I just wish to say that I found this essay disappointing in tone and in its disjointedness. I have found Father Ruff’s writings always thoughtful and engaging and I am glad they are archived. Contributions more couched by language of argument than dialogue I find to be of minimal value or utility to your broader community of “silent” readers, whom I hope you would remember are — or at least were — part of a virtual community…as opposed to a group mainly intent, seemingly, upon argumentativeness…and not after the method of academics. Sadly, I have finally found it off-putting enough to break my silence…in order to say “good-bye.”

  31. “In fact the statistics show that the vast majority of those attending Mass at Notre-Dame are tourists. The only times the Cathedral is reasonably full with practising Catholics is on special occasions such as military remembrance, and even then a proportion of those are only nominal Catholics. And there is still room for tourists to join in the splendiferousness. Sunday Mass without tourists (defined as people from outside Paris) would, it is estimated, leave the Cathedral only one-third full.”

    Well, I can only report what I saw. I was in Paris for nearly a month to hear a piece of mine that was performed at Notre Dame. It was commissioned by the Festival Toussant (a large Catholic arts and cultural festival – ok, i am bragging a little) and performed at two other (much less touristy) churches. We attended liturgies at 5 or 6 churches and i remember being surprised at the rather large turnouts…weekday masses also and M.Prayer. The festival events were very well attended and it seemed to me that Catholic intellectual life was pretty vibrant.

  32. Xavier Rindfleisch

    Comments on liturgical translations for the OF, mostly (it seems) by people who don’t like/go to the OF (some of whom consider the OF to be an invalid outcome of Vatican II): 61 (now 62).

    Comments on the Extraordinary Jubilee Year of Mercy: 2.

  33. @Chris McDonnell: Going forward is important; it is not possible to go back.

    It would seem that Archbishop Roache agrees with your sentiment, just perhaps not in the way you would prefer…!

    From The Tablet: The archbishop told The Tablet that the Roman liturgy “expresses the unity of the entire Church” and that while the 1998 version translated the 1975 Roman Missal, a new Latin Missal was introduced in 2002 thus making the 1998 edition outdated.

  34. Alan Johnson

    Matthew Hazell : @Chris McDonnell: Going forward is important; it is not possible to go back. It would seem that Archbishop Roache agrees with your sentiment, just perhaps not in the way you would prefer…! From The Tablet: The archbishop told The Tablet that the Roman liturgy “expresses the unity of the entire Church” and that while the 1998 version translated the 1975 Roman Missal, a new Latin Missal was introduced in 2002 thus making the 1998 edition outdated.

    That’s just not true though these days, now that there is a whole variety of flavours of the Roman liturgy. We are only talking about translation, not using entirely different texts as the EF, Anglican Use and Ordinariates do. Somehow the unity of the church is still expressed.
    I really, really wish our leaders didn’t dissemble like this. It sets a shocking example to those of us who follow.

    1. Aaron Sanders

      @Alan Johnson – comment #64:

      There’s a clear difference between the EF, AU/Ordinariate liturgy, and East/West diversity on the one hand, and the 1998 translation on the other. All the former represent centuries-old-and-still-living liturgical traditions (the youngest ca. 450 years) that actually formed the faith of generations of Christians. The 1998 sacramentary is a 17-year-old translation that HAS NEVER BEEN USED in the churches.

      Another difference is between diversity of rites or uses, and diversity of editions within those rites or uses. Not all who think the EF and Ordinariate have legitimate places in the church would also agree that there should be free choice among the historical editions of those liturgies (e.g., EF 1920, 1955, 1962, [1965]?; historical BCP or optional 20th century revision?).

      1. Jordan Zarembo

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #67:

        The 1998 sacramentary is a 17-year-old translation that HAS NEVER BEEN USED in the churches.

        I am certain that the 1998 collects, if not the entire liturgy, has been used in more than a few churches.

        The 1998 Sacramentary, though for the most part notional, represents the liturgical aspirations of a faction of the Church. There is no use denying its influence, even if the liturgy is not used often.

        It is interesting to note that Parliament rejected the proposed 1928 BCP not because of linguistic modifications to the 1662 text, but because the 1928 BCP offered prayers for the dead and also suggested that a aumbry or tabernacle would be suitable for the reservation of the sacrament. I don’t think the issue about the 1998 is primarily about furniture, but translation and deviance from the rubrics of the Missale Romanum. These two examples are quite different.

      2. Rita Ferrone Avatar
        Rita Ferrone

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #67:
        The distinction between a translation and a tradition is manifest; nobody is claiming that the 1998 translation represents a separate tradition. It is the Roman Rite. The antiquity of other multiple liturgical forms is no argument against the 1998 translation.

        But let’s look at how old or new their texts might be. Perhaps you are not aware that the Anglican rite approved for use in the Ordinariate contains modifications that have never existed in the Anglican rite before? Perhaps you are also unaware that the 1962 ritual contains a seven-stage catechumenal process likewise never in use before — or since — in this form? It had a shelf life of precisely 10 years before it was superseded by the RCIA, yet now it is legitimately used wherever the older rites are followed. And, obviously, the reform of Holy Week in 1951-55 is likewise included.

        It’s a red herring to say the 1998 does not have a “continuous tradition” behind it. The 1998 missal translation has as much claim to tradition as the 2011 edition. With a few, very few, modifications to update it to the third edition of the Roman Missal, it is every bit as good as the 2011, and in some respects a great deal better.

      3. Aaron Sanders

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #69:

        I know *I* think the distinction is manifest, and I’m glad you agree, but if we all know these to be such separate cases then why is such constant recourse made to the apples of diverse traditions in order to argue for the fittingness of diverse translations? Shouldn’t we all agree that’s a non sequitur?

        As to the novelties in the ’62 missal and Ordinariate use, yes, I’m aware of all of those, which is why I tried to gesture toward them to begin with, and that because defending the continued existence of the EF or Ordinariate in no way compels me to support diversity within those structures for, e.g. non-Bugnini and Bugnini rites. That sort of discussion occurs on a different order, and that’s the point.

        Please, then, don’t mistake my negative argument (against conflating preservation of traditional rites with that of, to borrow Jordan’s helpful term, notional translations) for a positive argument (as if I were trying to argue for MR2011 on the basis of comparability to the a traditional rite). If MR(trans.)2016 were imposed upon the OF, I would then reject maintaining optional use of 1998 and 2011 upon the same grounds for each.

      4. Rita Ferrone Avatar
        Rita Ferrone

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #70:
        Diversity and multiple forms of one rite is the banner under which Pope Benedict XVI introduced Summorum Pontificum, that’s why. It’s also how he framed the Anglican Ordinariate. Multiplicity within a single tradition is the order of the day.

        By the way, there is no such thing as a Bugnini rite or a non-Bugnini rite on the planet where I live. There are only the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe I don’t fully understand your point, but at any rate I don’t buy that description.

        I am glad we agree that there is a difference between translations and traditions. And I do appreciate your response. But I’m afraid I do not accept the idea of 1998 as a “notional translation.” There is nothing notional about it. It exists. It’s real. It was even approved by all 26 member conferences of ICEL. And, as Jordan mentioned, it is used in places. As we see, it is continuing to be proposed and recommended as an alternative to the 2011 translation. Notional? I don’t think so.

        Do I understand you correctly to be saying that you don’t accept the 1955 rites of Holy Week or the additions to the 1962 ritual that I mentioned? Just curious. And are those included in what you meant when you said “Bugnini rites”? Are the alterations to the Anglican rites also “Bugnini rites” (published after his death, and without his knowledge)?

      5. Fr Richard Duncan CO

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #71:
        I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing out the deficiencies of the 1955 Holy Week Reform. Indeed, as Gregory di Pippo points out below, the post conciliar revision to the rites of Holy Week restored some of things that the 1955 reforms took out.

        http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/search/label/1955%20Holy%20Week%20Revisions#.VQ1kGixyb4g

        Having said that, the pre-1955 Holy Week rites have a lot going for them, and I, for one, would like to see them made available as an option, albeit with some modifiactions, e.g. Pope Benedict’s version of the Oratio pro Judaeis in the Mass of the Presancitied and a slightly later time for the Easter Vigil.

      6. Karl Liam Saur

        @Fr Richard Duncan CO – comment #72:
        “… a slightly later time for the Easter Vigil”… please describe more.

      7. Aaron Sanders

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #71:

        – Bugnini was just a shorthand for the combined liturgical changes from, for our purposes, ’51 (Easter Vigil) onwards in what we now call the EF, both because he is a common denominator in them across papacies and because some fringe elements explicitly eschew those reforms as the bad fruit of his poisoned tree. Certainly not if spitefully sought, but even if dispassionately, I don’t support granting critics the option to revert past reforms they didn’t like. I also don’t think those reforms were well done (some elements of Holy Week appear arbitrarily novel, the suppression of the “second Confiteor” seems poorly thought out, etc.), but creating more options isn’t the way to go about addressing what failures there may have been. (The Ordinariate is a separate issue altogether.)

        – I agree with you that Benedict introduced a concept of diversity within a single rite by establishing the notion of two forms of one Roman Rite. But I also think even these boards will bear out that traditionalist and modern liturgist alike are in strong agreement that EF and OF are theologically and experientially different rites. Whether or not Benedict firmly believed in that continuity or just used “two-forms-in-one” as a convenient juridical resolution, I don’t read the biggest take away lesson from SP and its accompanying letter to be “diversity within a single rite is good.” Instead I think things could much more accurately be distilled into “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.” The diversity is not a good in itself, it is the venerable usage that is preserved through that diversity.

        cont.

      8. Paul Inwood

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #76:

        “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.”

        And that is precisely the kind of comment that is unhelpful to the discussion. “All of a sudden” is inaccurate because the Liturgical Movement that prepared the way for the Council Fathers to declare the EF to be inadequate — not “harmful”, another inaccurate depiction — had been underway for 50 years previously. It’s hardly the Church’s fault if those who proved to be Tridentine supporters were asleep and did not see which way the wind had been blowing. This was not a sudden change; you can read articles on both sides of the Atlantic all the way back to the time of World War II and beyond, predicting the changes and explaining the necessity for them. The Council was merely the occasion for changes that were really inevitable.

        Of course, that unawareness of the Liturgical Movement was not confined to folk at grass roots level (indeed, grass-roots members of the British Society of St Gregory knew full well what was going on). Cardinal John Carmel Heenan, Archbishop of Westminster, famously said, as he boarded the train to set off for the first session of the Council, “Don’t worry. Whatever else happens, they won’t touch our liturgy!” What was the first area the Council Fathers treated?!…. And Heenan did embrace the changes that came about, as his forewords to vernacular hymnals show.

        Viewed in this context, the Third Edition of the Missale Romanum and its 2010 translation, transliteration, call it what you will, can be considered a cynical and deliberate attempt to undo what the Council Fathers had called for and return the Church in spirit to a kind of EF. And that means that Benedict XVI’s Summorum Pontificum was aiding and abetting the felony. 1998 had been a step forward; 2010 was several steps backward.

      9. Aaron Sanders

        @Rita Ferrone – comment #71:
        -As for the use of 1998, I suppose I should qualify that abusus non statuit usum, and I should have said it has never been a licit option for use. “Forbidding” 1998 takes nothing away from anyone, it merely maintains the status quo. Yes, it was approved by all the conferences, but it never received its recognitio, much like a bill passed by both chambers of Congress but vetoed and thus bereft of force. As poorly executed as the ’73 ICEL rendition was, that translation has a much stronger claim to retention along the logic of SP than does 1998; ’73 was not just legal but required, and formed at least one whole generation of English-speaking Catholics, if not well on its way to two.

  35. Chris McDonnell

    Having just experienced the darkness of a solar eclipse here in the UK, and having come out the other side into bright sunshine, one can only hope and trust that the Church will emerge from the present confusion caused by Vox Clara darkening our language of prayer.
    If Matthew Hazell #63 wishes to quote the Tablet this week he might reference the comments of +Maurice Taylor who was chair of ICEL during those difficult years. Or wouldn’t that match his own narrative ?

  36. @Chris McDonnell (#65): If Matthew Hazell #63 wishes to quote the Tablet this week he might reference the comments of +Maurice Taylor who was chair of ICEL during those difficult years. Or wouldn’t that match his own narrative ?

    Bishop emeritus Taylor has been upset about the Vatican’s rejection of the 1998 translation for a number of years now. His comments and opinions at this point are not at all surprising.

    And I confess, I don’t see how the Bishop’s comments affect my “narrative”, or that of Archbishop Roche. 1998 is a translation of the 1975 2nd edition; since we are now on the 2008 3rd edition (emended), 1998 is out of date. Plus, it’s based on translation rules that have since been superceded.

    So, there will be no return to the 1998 translation; it is not a realistic aim. As I’ve said before on other threads, those who dislike the current translation would do better to get some spadework done in preparation for MR4.

  37. Fr Richard Duncan CO

    As Di Pippo points out, the traditional time for Vigils was between the canonical hours of None and Vespers. So you could start the Vigil mid to late afternoon and complete the ceremonies in sufficient time to have a meal and get to bed at a civilized time. The only difficulty about this would be that it would make it impossible to celebrate Paschal Mattins and Lauds, surely one of the highlights of the liturgical year. So there is, perhaps, something to be said for the traditional timing of the Vigil.

    1. Karl Liam Saur

      @Fr Richard Duncan CO – comment #74:
      I was wondering if you were lamenting how the Vigil supplanted Paschal Matins and Lauds. But, then again, they filled the void created by the anticipation of the Vigil.

  38. Jack Wayne

    The argument that SP and the AO should be used as a precident for allowing the old/1998 translation should only be made by those who actually support SP and AO and think they are positive, fruitful, things. It doesn’t make sense using SP to say using more than one translation is good if you also think having multiple forms of the same rite is harmful or a major mistake. It makes it hard to take the argument seriously.

    If you are going to start allowing multiple texts within the OF (and the translations are different enough that it is like a different text), then why not allow the vernacular EF ordinary to be used? Or a more traditional translation?

  39. Alan Johnson

    But if the re-translation was meant to usher in a new era of more traditional styles of worship, it has signally failed. In all the parishes I know the only thing that has changed is the words, and a little of the music. The “style” remains. To borrow anglican terminology, Low Church parishes are still singing lots of hymns, using almost no incense etc, and High Church parishes are still using chant whether in Latin of, heaven forbid, in English, and all the smells, bells and acres of lace their hearts desire.
    But sadly those places that found even singing the acclamations a challenge too far have been given little to encourage them in terms of musically useable English prosody.

  40. Ed Nash

    In my experience over the last year and a half…presiders are changing the words of the Eucharistic Prayers and presider’s prayers just as many bishops predicted would happen. Sometimes I am thankful for the word chages an sometimes I am not. Our Archbishop predicted that kind of behavior in 2 years in November 2011… I should have had him fill out my bracket.

  41. Ann Lardeur

    On going back to go forward. Is that not what we continually do with the Scripture and especially the Gospels, and what Pope Francis is proclaiming? It is what the Fathers of Vat 2 did – both with Scripture and the early Church. I believe Augustine of Hippo is the most quoted source in the documents after scripture. Religious orders and congregations went back to look at their foundation documents. Patristic theology had a huge influence on Karl Rahner – it was his early field of study. The revival of the diaconate is also taking from the past to move forward.


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