In keeping with the embrace of tradition

Chant Café has an interesting setting of an English Gloria – use it while you can, it has a shelf date of 11/20/2011. I like the notation, and I think this is a good example of the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ in action.


  1. Speaking of new settings of the Gloria, Jerry Galipeau over at GSGP relates the following story from Kevin Keil:

    There have been some great comments posted recently, comments from musicians like Kevin Keil. These musicians are beginning to implement the new texts, set to new and revised musical settings, now, in order to prepare their communities gradually for the upcoming change. I found Kevin’s comments quite interesting:

    “With all the variations of texts currently used in our present repertoire, no one noticed that it was a new translation; just another variation of the Gloria. Interesting.”

    Hmm… no riots? No people pouring from the pews to leave the church? Interesting indeed.

    1. I think this makes sense. People will likely have a far more difficult time shifting gears with the parts they normally say than with those they sing.

      Solution? Use the new translation as the occasion to start singing all the dialogues.

  2. You’re right, Jeffrey, it will only be the Priests leaving when they see these texts they must try to proclaim.

  3. When I first logged onto Chant Cafe, my computer crashed.

    So I rebooted and got back to the site. I should have saved my time. Talk about a bunch of folks who want everyone to sing “Ubi Caritas” in Latin, but don’t seem to know what it means!

    And, fellow bloggers, control your glee about the new translation. The revised text of the Gloria serves as no barometer of how the MR will be received. In the Gloria there’s not a single “consubstantial,” nor any “many’s” that actually mean “all,” nor any reference to those “passing things” which teach us to love the things of heaven.

    1. Out of curiosity, are you saying that Chant Cafe is run by uneducated hypocrites who promote Latin without actually understanding the language, or is it that it’s run by ill-meaning brutes who wouldn’t know love or charity if it smacked them across the face? I can’t quite tell which point you’re making here.

    2. “a bunch of folks who want everyone to sing ‘Ubi Caritas’ in Latin, but don’t seem to know what it means!”

      Thank you, Father, for this generous display of caritas!

  4. In response to Fritz’s post (#3), wouldn’t it be more prudent to start singing the dialogues as soon as possible with the current translation? Otherwise, people will notice two changes – in text and in the music that’s sung at liturgy – occurring at once.

    1. Not necessarily. The fact the dialogues will be sung but the music will (or should) carry the words. Think how many different versions of Psalm 22(23) we sing with no effort at all. Perhaps we should just let music do its job.

  5. Well, I’ll comment about the post: that is indeed humorous! I “sight sang” the tune after orienting myself to the four-line notation and remembering how mode iv opperates, then when I got to the end I realized the joke was on me for trying so hard to sing an “new” setting. 😀 thanks for the giggle this morning!

  6. May God bless you and keep you, Fr. Krisman.
    Fr. Ruff, our parochial student body chanted “your” new ICEL “Glory to god” this morning (mindful of the example of love of St. Agnes) with flow and beauty.
    Thank you for your selfless, unwavering and persevering work.

  7. So sorry, Jeff and Mark, for not being clearer in my previous posting.

    I had clicked on “interesting setting” above in Fr. Rupp’s intro to this thread.

    So that thread on Chant Cafe — concerning an interesting setting of an English GLoria — was what I read. That and only that. My comment was about many of the BLOGS on that one thread. Check it out for yourselves. Much of it is (or, at least, WAS last night) defamatory.

    1. I still don’t see your point… how does the attitude of bloggers linked to postings at a site that you linked through via a posting here have anything to do with the reception of the new translation by the Catholic faithful? I think I did go as far as to say that the priests are a different matter. I would doubt that we will see too many priests leaving on account of the new translation. Those who would consider doing so may want to consider doing so…and I mean no ill will by saying so.

    2. Fr. Ron, FWIW, I understood immediately what you meant. The two different points you were making were quite clear to this reader.

    3. Chironomo @ Chant Cafe:
      “The orinal (sic) post at PT that spurred this article was so transparently made from the point of view of a discouraged progressive who sees the time of the NewChurch coming to an end, wishing with all her strength that her unlikely predictions might come true. The reasoning goes like this:
      If I think this translation is an abomination intended to solidify clerical power, surely EVERYONE must believe this.”

  8. Jeffrey Herbert, my second posting was in response to postings of Mark Thompson and Jeffrey Tucker, not to anything you wrote. Because of my lack of clarity, both of those fine gentlemen thought that I was saying something about those who RAN Chant Cafe in the second para. of my first posting. I was not. I was commenting on the tone of some of the postings to that one thread at Chant Cafe.

    As to your question, the answer is “It doesn’t, because I made no such linkage in either of my two postings.”

    The final paragraph of my original posting WAS directed to those PrayTell bloggers who appeared to conclude from the anecdotal evidence you posted that reception of the entire RM would be a snap because Kevin Keil experienced no problem with how the new Gloria was received. I cautioned them to contain their glee because, I fear, there will be quite a number of problematic areas in the other parts of the RM.

    I DO have a couple of questions for Kevin Keil, but I don’t know if he reads PrayTell.

  9. Fr. Krisman, if you’re the same Fr. Krisman who’s been involved in matters liturgical for decades, I am more than taken aback by your walking-back of the following exact quote (if your not the same Fr. Krisman, but another, then I’m only surprised by your impetuosity):

    “When I first logged onto Chant Cafe, my computer crashed. (Like that’s an oracle)
    So I rebooted and got back to the site. I should have saved my time. Talk about a bunch of folks who want everyone to sing “Ubi Caritas” in Latin, but don’t seem to know what it means!”

    Sorry, Padre, there was no contextualization implicit/explicit that is evident in that declaration and judgment that excepted JT, and our fellow contributors from your obvious disdain. And Rita, good for you that you “got” Father’s inference. Do either of you know any of us personally. Have you done any modicum of delving into Cafe to determine our MO’s?
    I’ve spent serious time with my Cafe confreres, we know from Ubi Caritas. I knew the literal from Durufle. I learned the “meaning” from Bob Hurd. Still feel solid in your assessments?
    I’m sorry for this tone; I wish AWR had intervened by now. But y’all fumbled this fungo, just say “my bad” and move on. Or is that beyond the pale?

    1. Hi Charles,

      “And Rita, good for you that you “got” Father’s inference.”

      What I got was that he was making two separate points. It’s not an inference, he just said two different things. Seemed clear to me!

  10. And Rita, I’m happy for you.
    Wasn’t at all clear to me. I don’t know if that puts me in the “uneducated hypocrite” bin, or the “ill-meaning brute” bin. People that do know me would likely assign me to both, but they’ve taken the time and love to know me, despite myself.
    Now, I’ll return to trying to find the speck in my own eye. Blessings.

  11. How does one, with humility, receive that which is passed on from our neighbors in time, or do we only listen to our neighbor in space? Have St. Paul or Homer or Shakespeare or Dickens have anything to teach us? Something that we should receive and embrace from our neighbors in time? Has humility any place in our lives? Is it possible that someone ABOVE us may know more than we? Is God above us? Could it be that we should be lowly servants? Might we join hands with the lowly? If we do, are we shamed? Is obedience not for us? To have the ability to obey is to be oppressed?

  12. Are we in the winter of ’11 or the spring of ’57 in ancient Corinth? Having heard – and perhaps preached on – the words of Paul today (1Cor 1: 10-13, 17), there is obviously the need for the real work to now begin: practicing them… in charity.

  13. Kevin Keil,

    Yes, I wanted to ask you about a few things in Jeffrey Herbert’s posting (#1).

    The Secretariat of the Bishops’ Committee on Divine Worship has stated several times that the new liturgical texts may not be used before the First Sunday of Advent. I’ve heard several pastors and musicians say that having only four Sundays before Christmas will not allow them to introduce much of the altered people’s parts in that brief period of time, and that they will do most of the work of introducing the revised texts after Christmas.

    You seem to indicate that some musicians will introduce the changes before Advent 1. Has your bishop (or anyone else’s, for that matter) specified an earlier implementation date?

    Regarding “just another variation of the Gloria.” I’m not aware that any musical setting of the Gloria that does not use the approved English text has ever been published in the USA. There are several such settings in Spanish, but it has been my experience that Spanish-speaking assemblies have increasingly been using the approved text over the past decade or so.

    1. Hi Ron.

      My pastor has given my the go ahead. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

      A few gloria’s have added or dropped words: Mass of Light adds a “Sing”, Misa del Mundo (Gloria is all english) drops several keys phrases (which is why I stopped using it), and the Mass of God’s Promise has a wonderful refrain that has so much repetition that it almost seems like a new text:
      “Glory to God, give glory to God. Glory to God in the highest. Peace on the earth and glory to God. Peace to all people, peace to all people on earth.”

  14. Thank, Kevin.

    My understanding is that the BCDW Secretariat is giving closer scrutiny these days to new and revised Mass settings. I know that the Mass of Light has eliminated the added “Sing.” Some repitition of phrases is still allowed, but not the introduction of extraneous words.

  15. I suppose there is some value in having “in house” conversations between “playa’s” in the Lit/Industrial Com. biz lay it out for us plebes. But if “Ron” had taken the time or interest, last night or today, to notice, the “cat is out of the bag already.” Whether in Kevin’s joint, South Africa or New Zealand, much less my parochial school’s ferial Mass, the initiative will eventually come to us. And “us” may remain the “enemy,” or we can choose to “make the pathways smooth.”
    Father Krisman, I suggest you, at least, acknowledge that aspects of your attitudinal magisterium can be just as detrimental to the charity mandated by Christ and the gospels as that presumed to be institutional in the Curia and on “enemy” blogs, and then you might find it easier to carry on a civil conversation among contentious siblings, so that we might, among ourselves reconstitute at least a semblage of the Body of Christ in our public discourse and witness.
    The faithful will need us all, clerical and lay leaders alike, to shepherd them through what WILL be various levels of discomfort. Let ‘s not waste time anymore waging rhetorical games.
    This whole thread was acknowledged by the blog’s founder to be considered “humor.” Can you not just concur that we all like a good laugh now and then, in the midst of strife and real tragedies, and that demonizing anyone is truly counterintuitive to our discipline?

    1. Sorry, but you are trivializing the issue. The bishops have failed in their responsibility to watch over the language of the liturgy and are about to plunge the faithful into a seriously debilitating pastoral debacle. One bishop who spoke up, Trautman, was pilloried by ignorant loudmouths and ignored by his fellow bishops.

      The very serious ethical question now is: what is the responsibility of the priests and the faithful? You say, just obey. But that could be an evasion.

  16. No, Joe, I have not. And please refrain from telling me what I have said.
    What was said by me is above your post. You might want to read it carefully and thoroughly again.
    What I am doing is trying to help our brothers and sisters in Christ, and their children whom I teach, to be prepared. Aren’t we called to “ready the way?”
    And peace to you and all people of good will.

  17. Ok, sorry, I misread you. Yes, what lies ahead will be a period of very difficult management, and charity will be key to preventing the situation degenerating into a screaming match.

  18. The danger with appeals to ‘charity’ when coming from authority is that they become a rationalization for authority’s dysfunction. Such a dynamic brings Christian virtue (obedience, charity) into disrepute.

    1. I agree — but still we should practice charity as much as possible. Truth has such power that softening it with charity cannot do any harm.

  19. Joe… first you say

    “Trautman, was pilloried by ignorant loudmouths and ignored by his fellow bishops. ” implying that those who opposed him are ignorant loudmouths, then you say…

    “charity will be key to preventing the situation degenerating into a screaming match.”

    You can’t label the opposition as “ignorant loudmouths” and then insist that they display charity. That seems duplicitous…

  20. Inconsistent, perhaps; you yourself are needlessly uncharitable in calling me duplicitous!

    The treatment of Trautman by his smearers was disgraceful, and so was the cold shoulder and ridicule he met from his fellow bishops, whom he had reminded of their foremost pastoral duty.

    1. For what it’s worth, it was Cdl. Mahony who moved along the discussion after +Trautman’s objections. I’ve never really thought of Mahony as a loudmouth…

  21. “The danger with appeals to ‘charity’ when coming from authority is that they become a rationalization for authority’s dysfunction. Such a dynamic brings Christian virtue (obedience, charity) into disrepute.”

    Fr. Endean, I’m sure there is some sort of philosophical value within your statement above, and thank you for advancing it. However, in the context of this thread, the actual “call” for charity hasn’t come from institutional authority. I think it would be quite accurate to acknowledge the call coming from the “grass roots,” namely we with boots and sandals on the ground. If there is an authority “we” emulate, it is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ, who quelled the fury of clever Pharisees with his answer as to which was the second greatest commandment. I don’t believe He qualified whom we should welcome, forgive and love with the exception of those with whom we are disenchanted.
    This whole sorry episode was hi-jacked from what I believe was Fr. Ruff’s simple sharing of an “in house” bit of cleverness. I don’t believe rancor was present either here or at the Cafe original post.
    But, as per usual with the usual suspects, another opportunity to tone things down and simply converse was interrupted by vitriol and hyperbole.
    So…a horse walks into a bar and the bartender sez “Why the long face?” Bada boom.
    I’m officially outta this thread.

  22. As for better dealings, the rule of Marriage Encounter seems apt:

    Use “I” language.

    Bad: you are meaniehead.

    Good: I am a meaniehead.

    If we managed to master this basic approach, I suspect a lot of flame would be doused before it masks the discussion. Joe has wronged Charles in this regard: none of us need to have other people tell us what we’re saying; what they’re hearing is fascinating enough.

    As for advance use of MR3, I’ve considered utilizing the Mysterium Fidei settings as Communion songs with chanted psalm verses next Fall.

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