“The Lord be with you. He is here in our midst.” Papal Liturgy in Brazil

When Pope Francis greets the assembly at World Youth Day, here’s how the Dominus vobiscum will work in the local vernacular (Portuguese):

O Sehor esteja convosco. Ele está no meio de nós.
(The Lord be with you. He is here in our midst.)

Here’s another greeting he’ll use:

A paz esteja convosco. O amor de Cristo nos uniu.
(Peace be with you. The love of Christ has brought us together.)

The liturgical translations in use in Brazil for several decades are quite interesting in their lively creativity. The formula in the “supper narrative” of the Eucharistic Prayer in Portuguese remains “for you and for all.” The response at the invitation to Communion is still “…and I shall be healed/saved,” not “…and my soul…”

The Eucharistic Prayers have acclamations for the people throughout, such as “Gather and sanctify your people,” “O Lord, sanctify our offering,” “O Lord, receive our offering.” “Make of us one body and one spirit,” “Make of us a perfect offering,” “Father, remember your Church,” “Father, remember your sons and daughters,” and “Fill everyone with your glory.”

And all this is relevant because Pope Francis has made decisive changes to the plans he inherited and directed that much more vernacular be used in the liturgies, and much less Latin than had been the case previously.

The booklet with all the World Youth Day liturgies with Francis is online here. Here is a summary of the language used at the World Youth Day Masses this year:

 

Wednesday, July 24, 2013 Mass:

Entirely vernacular, including Gloria, Sanctus, etc., with no Latin whatsoever. (Eucharistic Prayer III, with congregational acclamations.)

 

Saturday, July 27, 2013 Mass:

Introductory Rites entirely in vernacular, except: sung Kyrie and Gloria in Latin.

Liturgy of the Word (with lectionary Responsorial Psalm) entirely vernacular.

Liturgy of the Eucharist: entirely vernacular except Sanctus, Pater noster (but embolism and “For the kingdom…” in Portuguese), vernacular Memorial Acclamation; no text or music given but it says that the “Agnus Dei” is sung. (Eucharistic Prayer II, with congregational acclamations.)

Closing Rites: entirely vernacular.

 

Sunday, July 28, 2013 Mass:

Introductory Rites entirely in vernacular except sung Kyrie in Latin; Gloria in Portuguese.

Liturgy of the Word (with lectionary Responsorial Psalm) entirely vernacular, including Creed in Portuguese.

Liturgy of the Eucharist: entirely vernacular except Sanctus, Pater noster (but not embolism and ending which are in Portuguese); vernacular Memorial Acclamation; no text or music given but it says that the “Cordeiro de Deus” (“Lamb of God”) is sung. (Eucharistic Prayer III, with congregational acclamations – EP I is not ever used during WYD 2013.)

Closing Rites: entire Angelus is prayed in Latin, including Ave Marias; the final blessing is in Latin, with the dismissal in Portuguese.

*               *               *               *               *

And to forestall a possible misunderstanding, I intentionally wrote above that the Kyrie is sung “in Latin.” Most people say that the Kyrie is Greek and think it’s a humorous gaffe to call it Latin. I’m waging a (probably hopeless) campaign to convince people that Kyrie is a Latin word – it’s in every church Latin dictionary. It came from the Greek, as we all know. But all kinds of words come from all kinds of places. The English dictionary has the English words “hors d’oevres” and “angst,” which came from French and German respectively. Every word comes from somewhere, and I suppose we could chase all kinds of words back to their Indo-European or Sankscrit or whatever origins and there would be no English words left. Anyway, it’s a minor point and I’m comfortable with everyone else being wrong and me being right!

*               *               *               *               *

The last World Youth Day under Pope Benedict in Madrid is here. As you see, it’s loaded with Latin all over the place, including some greetings outside Mass in vernacular but many of them in Latin  (Dominus vobiscum). Here’s an overview of language used at WYD Masses under Benedict in 2011:

 

Saturday, August 20, 2011 Mass:

Introductory Rites entirely in vernacular, except: sung Kyrie and Gloria in Latin.

Liturgy of the Word (with lectionary Responsorial Psalm) entirely vernacular, except the dialogues after the readings and before the Gospel are in Latin.

Liturgy of the Eucharist: celebrant prayers Latin, dialogues with people and Prayer over Offerings in vernacular. Preface (including dialogue with people) and Sanctus sung in Latin; Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon) in Latin, including Memorial Acclamation  (Mortem tuam). Pater noster Latin but embolism and ending in Spanish. Rite of Peace in Spanish. Agnus Latin, celebrant private prayers mix of Latin and Spanish, invitation to Communion in Spanish. Prayer after Communion Spanish.

Closing Rites: entirely Latin.

 

Sunday, August 21, 2011 Mass:

Introductory Rites begin with Latin greeting, then entirely in vernacular, except sung Kyrie; Gloria intoned in Latin then sung in Spanish.

Liturgy of the Word (with lectionary Responsorial Psalm) entirely vernacular, except the dialogues after the readings and before the Gospel are in Latin. Creed sung in Latin. Prayers of the Faithful stated first by deacon’s announcement of each petition in Latin, with petition itself in various vernaculars; opening and closing of celebrant in Spanish.

Liturgy of the Eucharist: celebrant prayers Latin, dialogues with people and Prayer over Offerings in vernacular. Preface (including dialogue with people) and Sanctus sung in Latin; Eucharistic Prayer III  in Latin, Memorial Acclamation introduced in Latin but sung in Spanish. Pater noster Latin but embolism and ending in Spanish. Rite of Peace in Spanish. Agnus Latin, celebrant private prayers mix of Latin and Spanish, invitation to Communion in Spanish. Prayer after Communion Spanish.

Closing Rites: entire Angelus is prayed in Latin, including Ave Marias; the final blessing and dismissal in Latin.

awr

67 comments

  1. I have no problem with the vernacular, but it seems odd to me that there’s so much local vernacular (Portugese) in an international gathering.

    1. @Richard Skirpan – comment #1:
      I’ve had a similar question, Richard.

      Should they do a wide mix of vernaculars? With mostly a lot of English which is today’s Latin? I don’t know. (And I suppose it’s not the best for an Ami to be the one suggesting the whole world use English.)

      And I can’t resist adding – before anyone propose more English worldwide as today’s Latin… someone would have to produce a decent English liturgical translation!

      I wonder if this isn’t in accord with Francis’ ecclesiology – the local church is the local church and they speak their language. So in Rome he speaks Italian because he’s Bishop of Rome above all, and this comes before his being Pope of the universal church. So I suppose this means that the church in Brazil speaks Portuguese, and when people from all over the world come there, they join in the worship of the local Church.

      This is my hunch but I don’t have enough info to know for sure.

      awr

  2. I saw the World Youth Day Opening Mass from Tuesday, July 23 on YouTube. The local bishop presided, as this wasn’t one of Pope Francis’ scheduled Masses. I didn’t understand the language used during the Eucharistic Prayer, but I noticed that there were several additional acclamations sung (although it seemed that the Memorial Acclamation itself was recited). Does anyone have any insight on this?

    1. @Fr. Jim Chepponis – comment #2:
      Jim – I’ve updated the post to reflect this, and I’ve translated the EP3 acclamations from Portuguese to English.

      Does anyone know – are the acclamations ALWAYS a part of the Eucharistic Prayer in Brazil, or are they an option?

      Or course our proposed 1998 English Sacramentary had such acclamations (I believe they were optional), but all that went down the tubes.

      awr

      1. @Anthony Ruff, OSB – comment #6:
        When I visited Brazil several years ago, it seemed that all Eucharistic Prayers had additional acclamations (in the style of those found in the EPs for Children). They were printed in professional worship aids for the assembly, and were either sung or recited at parish Masses. I think I checked a Missal and found the acclamations printed there as well. I think this is a Brazilian adaptation which is not found in the Missal in Portugal.

  3. I can see how one might say the Kyrie is Latin, but my generation and older were taught even in elementary school that the Kyrie was the only Greek that remained in the Latin Mass, a remnant of an older tradition when the entire Mass was in Greek. I tend to agree with Richard about the use of Portuguese with the multi-national congregation of youth. Pope Benedtic’s liturgies seem to respect the vernacular of the host country but unite everyone verbally with the fixed parts of the Mass in Latin. Several years ago I attended in St. Peter’s Square the beatification of many Spanish Martyrs. The Mass was in Spanish and the Spanish speakers spoke and sang robustly in Spanish, but everyone joined them in the fixed Latin parts that were familiar Latin Chants which united the minority with the majority of Spaniards.

    1. @Father Allan J. McDonald – comment #4:
      Guess he just ignored your post and request:

      “And to forestall a possible misunderstanding, I intentionally wrote above that the Kyrie is sung “in Latin.” Most people say that the Kyrie is Greek and think it’s a humorous gaffe to call it Latin. I’m waging a (probably hopeless) campaign to convince people that Kyrie is a Latin word – it’s in every church Latin dictionary. It came from the Greek, as we all know. But all kinds of words come from all kinds of places.”

      But, his personal experiences trump all!

    2. @Father Allan J. McDonald – comment #4:
      Fr. Allan (or Fr. McDonald), you overlook the interleafing of the Trisagion from the Eastern liturgy in Greek followed by Latin into the Improperia of Good Friday (Agios o Theos, Sanctus Deus; Agios ischyros, Sanctus fortis; Agios athanatos, eleison imas, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis). They are now ignored as the church musicians play, instead, something like the spiritual “Were you there when they crucified my Lord.”

      1. @David Braun – comment #28:
        You are right! In 60 years I’ve never heard this, how beautiful though. I’m a bit confused though, is this to be done in the Eastern Rite liturgy and musicians there are playing “Were you there?” (which I’ve heard many times during Lent and on Good Friday in parishes where I have been assigned or pastored so imbued was I with Vatican II principles, as I clear my throat). My first 24 years of ordination it was Fr. Allan but my last 9 years Fr. McDonald and Allan for some here. I discovered after 24 years that many people thought my last name was Allan! They would ask who is Fr.McDonald? Of course as a lay person I was often called McDonald!

      2. @Fr. Allan J. McDonald – comment #33:
        Fr. Allan/McDonald, it’s part of the Reproaches, which I don’t think I’ve ever heard in a Catholic Good Friday Liturgy. We almost snuck them in a few years ago, but then someone read the text and decided they were anti-semitic (I don’t think they necessarily are, but without some catechesis they could certainly be heard as such).

        PS
        FWIW, I’ve often wondered why some folks sniff at appellations like “Fr. John” or “Fr. Bob,” as opposed to “Fr. Smith” or “Fr. Jones.” It seems to me highly appropriate for a cleric to be called by the name he received in the supernatural re-generation of baptism rather than by the family name he received by virtue of his natural generation.

      3. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #34:
        Yes the reproaches! I did not know the Latin version even in the revised Mass had the Greek. BTY I prefer Fr. Allan and regret going to McDonald 9 years ago. In my next assignment I’ll go back.

      4. @Father Allan J. McDonald – comment #38:

        and regret going to McDonald 9 years ago.

        I first read this as saying that you regretted going to McDonald’s. 😉 I have only been to a McDonald’s once in my life, and I certainly regretted it! Please don’t go back in your next assignment! 😉

      5. @Father Allan J. McDonald – comment #38:
        Yet, you were the diocesan liturgy director form 1985-1991 and got all of the proposed translations, etc. and would have been aware of this, correct?

        Well, these comments explain your surprise and reaction to Francis’s liturgy and use of the vernacular this week:

        “The Portuguese Missal as currently experienced and translated under the old and moldy methodology of “equivalency and make it up as you go” is even worse than the old English one we recently discarded by the grace of God, pure grace, for if it had been left to the elitist theologians and bishops we have who continue a love affair with the 1960’s method of translating, we would have only a slightly revised English Mass today. And if these people had gotten their way, and they still can’t believe that they didn’t, we would have seen even more radical changes to the English Missal more in line with the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer for their eucharist and more like the Lutheran eucharistic liturgy. We would have had the option of substituting a hymn that resembles the Gloria for the Gloria itself (similar to replacing the propers with equivalent hymns) plus some other bold initiatives that thank God were nipped in the bud in the 1990’s (actually in the late 1980’s).

        I know this, because as director of Liturgy for the Diocese of Savannah from 1985 to 1991, Bishop Raymond Lessard would pass on to me suggested revised translations of certain parts of the Mass that had been sent to him and all the bishops of our country. I was aghast at what I was reading. But at that time, the USCCB’s Office of Divine Worship was drunk on power and control and really, really thought they could tell the American bishops and ultimately the Pope what the American English Missal would look like. This was the 1960’s mentality well into the 1990’s on steroids!”

        But then you did go on to say that you attended one NCCB liturgy meeting in 1987 and made suggestions but the group was off the wall/heteredox and you never went back.

      6. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #34:

        the Reproaches, which I don’t think I’ve ever heard in a Catholic Good Friday Liturgy.

        Extraordinary! I think I have scarcely witnessed a Good Friday liturgy where the Reproaches weren’t sung.

        There are plenty of good and accessible English settings out there — right off the top of my head I can think of three from OCP (including a Taizé-esqe one of my own), and there are plenty of others.

        Of course there is plenty of time to sing other things, too, but the Reproaches are surely in first place as one of the most ancient parts of our liturgical tradition.

      7. @Paul Inwood – comment #39:
        My sense is that it is the text and not the music that is the stumbling block for people. But I tend to agree that they should be used. Maybe my experience is skewed by the sorts of places I’ve found myself on various Good Fridays.

      8. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #34:
        Fritz (or should I say “Deacon Fritz?”) – When you say “It seems to me highly appropriate for a cleric to be called by the name he received in the supernatural re-generation of baptism,” are you saying it would be highly inappropriate for me to be called “Mr. Damian” because I’m not a cleric? What am I missing? (I mean that in both senses.) Does a cleric’s first name take on a special character with ordination?

        Perhaps Allan McDonald could chime in here.

  4. Keep in mind that Brazil has the largest number of Catholics of any nation. So it is very likely that there will be many people at these events that speak Portuguese. That makes a decision in favor of the local Church a lot easier. If this had been scheduled in Cologne, wonder if Francis would have used as much German.

    Wonder what the future of Papal trips will be under Francis? Certainly he understands the value of his current “celebrity” status both internally in regard to reform, and externally with regard to evangelization. But unlike JP2, that is not really dependent so much on big trips. He got as much attention by going to a local prison, and a small island refugee haven. He is also uncomfortable with the personal attention, discouraging people from chanting his name.

    Benedict was also uncomfortable with the remnants of JP2’s media style. Of course he farmed out beatifications to local churches. I suspect Francis will go further in that direction encouraging local churches to become pilgrimage centers for events with less dependency upon papal trips.

    I also suspect he will use the Lampedusa model of quick pastoral trips to places to remove papal travel from the Head of State category, and to give great attention to local churches without great costs to them and others who journey to those places.

  5. I’m not at all intending to be offensive, but liturgy almost anywhere for the last nearly fifty years has been largely, mostly, or entirely in the vernacular. What is so remarkable about its use for the youth week in Brazil?

    Fr Ruff –
    With respect, I suggest that Kyrie remains Greek and that no one ever thought of it as Latin; nor (I may be proven wrong) did it ever attain every-day-usage status in Latinophone lands. Too, regarding your examples of hors d’oevres and angst, while they are indeed in our dictionaries and are rather commonly used by us, I think that most people continue to think of themselves as using French or German words, not English ones, when peppering their speach with status symbols. So, I don’t agree that you can present this as a fait accompli.

    1. @M. Jackson Osborn – comment #7:
      Oh, on the Kyrie being Greek or Latin, I’m only half serious. It’s fine to call it Greek. I just find it handy to say, eg. “The Kyrie, Gloria, and Agnus Dei were in Latin” and not having to specify every time I refer to the language of several Latin chants in a group.) Not a biggie.

      What is so remarked about WYD? I think it’s obvious: it’s such a complete shift from Pope Benedict’s practice. As my post shows, Benedict had moved things in a different direction. And now that’s being undone. I certainly think that’s a big story.

      awr

  6. I’m trying to figure out how “O Sehor esteja convosco / Ele está no meio de nós” fits even within the parameters of Comme le prevoit as a translation. While I prefer “and with your spirit” to “and also with you,” I will acknowledge that the latter might count as a dynamically equivalent translation of et cum spiritu tuo. I’m not so sure about the Portuguese, however, since the response is a statement of fact and not a reciprocation of the presider’s greeting. While it is a perfectly fine versicle and response, I wonder if even functionally it is equivalent to the Latin.

    1. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #8:
      Hi Fritz,

      I’m not going to go chase down the refs in Comme le prevoit, but I’m pretty sure it said something more than “translate from the Latin getting the sense but paraphrase as much as you want.” It said that you find texts appropriate for the people in a given culture, and that translating from Latin was itself a temporary strategy because eventually original texts would have to be created in each vernacular. So the question (for them back then) was not “Does this somehow reflect the Latin,” but “Is this vernacular text a good one for these people’s expression of their faith, however we got to this text?”.

      awr

    2. @Fritz Bauerschmidt – comment #8:

      I think that there was a trend towards that kind of affirmation of the presence of God in the assembly. At one time the Anglicans used

      The Lord is here — His spirit is with us as their V/ and R/

      The Brazilian Portugese (and the “Portguese Portugese”, which is very slightly different) seem to be in the same line of thought.

  7. I had hoped that Pope Francis would have kept the custom of saying the Canon in Latin at at least one of the Masses. I remember waiting anxiously at every one of Pope Benedict’s Masses, both “at home” and “on the road”, to hear him intone the timeless te igitur clementissime Pater. No more than the te was needed to elicit a smile from me.

    I suspect that few PTB readers wish ever again to hear that sacred Latin phrase from the lips of a pope during public liturgy. “The people don’t understand.” Many Americans can’t understand the earlier modern English style of their Constitution. Nevertheless, this document remains the basis of our government and its laws regardless of individual comprehension. The Canon is the quintessentially Roman “constitution” of the orthodox Eucharistic faith. The Canon is also the oldest extant expression of western Catholic Eucharistic faith given its compositional genesis in the nascent episcopacy of Rome’s waning Empire. In the Canon is found a complete and sufficient catechism as well as the reality of the sacrament, all enrobed in awesome prosody. Are we not to encourage popes to gladly proclaim this prayer and confession in its original and ancient tongue at least occasionally?

    Yet, I realize that the favelas do not cry out for philology, but affordable bus passes. I am certain that Pope Francis would have choice words for me were he to read what I have written.

  8. I wonder if this isn’t in accord with Francis’ ecclesiology – the local church is the local church and they speak their language

    When I was taking a course from Gutiérrez, he often talked favorably about the Magisterium but of course it was the Latin American bishops and Medellín that he was quoting.

    In understanding Francis’ ecclesiology it seems important to recognize the importance he gives to Aparecida document as a blue print for his Papacy.

    Gutiérrez also said when he and others from Latin America came back from Vatican II, that they recognized the issues in Latin America were very different from the issues in Europe that drove a lot of the discussion at Vatican II. I suspect Francis sees his ecclesiology as coming from his experience and that of the Latin American bishops which he is offering as a service to the rest of the Church.

    A journey to the roots of Francis’ papacy

    http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/journey-roots-francis-papacy

    Stand back from the details, and here’s what you get from the Aparecida document:
    a strong emphasis on getting “out of the sacristy and into the street”;
    a special concern for the poor;
    a moderate, balanced approach to ideological extremes;
    and a determination to take seriously the religious instincts of ordinary people.

    I like John Allen’s summary; I suspect it is a good guide to Francis ecclesiology.
    .

  9. The 1973 English missal had a similar although different opening greeting which no one used:

    Priest: The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

    People: Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1. @Fr. Allan. McDonald – comment #14:

      The pastor of a parish I frequent often used this opening greeting on weekdays. He would give this greeting and then move directly into the confiteor. I often thought that he used this option as a time-saving measure. He made sure workers had time to eat lunch. 20 minute noon Mass was the norm then; Mass with the new translation is only slightly longer. This brevity can be achieved reverently with minimal or no preaching, EP II, and no pax.

      You are right that very few priests used this option. Few in my parish except the everyday regulars knew the response.

  10. It is actually painful to re-read CLP, because it is so entirely reasonable. In its place, we have the horrid Lit Auth. Quelle dégringolade!

    Overall, I think that CLP would support the change that Pope Francis has made. I did find two passages that might be cited against it:

    §6 … a liturgical translation … must faithfully communicate to a given people, and in their own language, that which the Church by means of this given text originally intended to communicate to another people in another time.

    §33 Some euchological and sacramental formularies like the consecratory prayers, the anaphoras, prefaces, exorcisms, and those prayers which accompany an action, such as the imposition of hands, the anointing, the signs of the cross, etc., should be translated integrally and faithfully, without variations, omissions, or insertions.

    These short excerpts cannot be read on their own; for instance, §33 goes on to explain “If the text is ancient, certain Latin terms present difficulties of interpretation because of their use and meaning, which are much different from their corresponding terms in modern language. The translation will therefore demand an astute handling and sometimes a paraphrasing, in order to render accurately the original pregnant meaning.”

    Fritz, is your primary concern that the optative or deprecative sense of the original has been turned into a simple indicative, a statement of fact? Of course neither Dominus vobiscum nor et cum spiritu tuo has a verb, so we have to infer that something like sit (may it be) has been elided. Still, it is reasonable to assume the same verb for both greeting and response, or we could end up with (literally), “The Lord be with you” (Dominus sit vobiscum); “He is already with you” (et cum spiritu tuo est).

    1. @Jonathan Day – comment #18:
      Yes, that’s my concern in a nutshell. If, as Wittgenstein argued, meaning is determined by use, then a translation ought to at least have the same function as what it is translating. I suppose a statement of fact might serve as a greeting (“My, Grandma, you’re looking so young!”), but it’s a stretch.

  11. RE Anthony Ruff – comments #3, 6, 9, 10. I resonate with your comments! I especially like your reference to the need for a better English translation, if English is to function as a “lingua franca” at such international liturgies. Hopefully, Pope Francis will continue to set newer directions (or precedents?) with these WYD liturgies – as he did with the Holy Thursday liturgy at the youth prison. I’m encouraged by his style of allowing a return of a little more “fresh air” into the liturgical celebrations at which he presides. And as with the styles of Popes Benedict and John Paul 2, maybe these will likewise be imitated in the local churches!

  12. One of the new Eucharistic Prayers in the revised/reformed Church of ireland Book of Common Prayer has similar acclamations. It works very well.

  13. Fascinating, and encouraging!

    With any luck we will see Summorum Pontificum fade into even greater obscurity in the years ahead.

    1. @Fr. Jim Blue – comment #21:

      isti sacerdotes qui liturgiam gregorianae-caroliginanae sine cautione abrenuntiaveruntnefas sunt!

      Pope Francis himself has affirmed the right of self-determination for “old believers”. Should you not wish to say the sacred words which are yours by right of ordination and right of immemorial history, please then ignore them. Do not, however, denigrate a heritage which is central to the lives of many.

      EDIT: I have left my original Latin outburst in place. nefast or nefas sunt are very strong curses in Latin. I should not characterize Fr. Blue in this way, but his comment made me angry.

    2. @Fr. Jim Blue – comment #21:
      Pardon me but I thought this post was regarding the majority/dominant Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and its development. I guess liturgical plurality does not extend to undesirable, inconvenient minorities.

      1. @Manuel Albino – comment #29:
        Manuel,
        The appeal to plurality doesn’t really work in this case, for it is being claimed that the rest of us should extend a spirit of plurality to those who, to varying extents, don’t accept the liturgical principles of the Second Vatican Council and, to varying degrees, don’t accept the reforms carried out under Paul VI. I hope you see what an extraordinary request this is, and why those who have labored for up to 50 years under different presuppositions would not be ready to extend the spirit of plurality. It’s really all about acceptance of the Second Vatican Council.
        Please note, this has almost nothing to do with the liturgical plurality of various rites such as Ambrosian and Dominican and the rest.
        awr

      2. @Anthony Ruff, OSB – comment #32:
        My point was that the snide comment about the Extraordinary Form was rude and uncalled for and offered nothing in terms of intelligent conversation regarding this pontificate’s liturgical priorities or practice. In contrast, the comments about the Greek/Byzantine influence on the Roman Liturgy were quite professional and respectful.

      3. @Manuel Albino – comment #37:
        I don’t like rudeness in comments, either when I am rude or when others are.

        But I don’t see anything rude in Fr Jim’s wish that “Summorum Pontificum fade into even greater obscurity in the years ahead.” He seems to think that SP was a mistake. Apparently you disagree. Surely we can disagree about such things without taking offence.

      4. @Anthony Ruff, OSB – comment #32:
        People of various stripes have issues with accepting Vatican II in practice, yet it is those of a traditional liturgical bent who seem to get the most flack from a small minority of folks. Every single pope since Vatican II has either granted, upheld, or expanded permission to use the old Mass – including Francis.

      5. @Anthony Ruff, OSB – comment #32:

        Fr. Anthony, with due respect, your assessment is not comprehensive. I accept all the constitutions of the Council, including Sacrosanctum Concilium. I even accept the constitution Missale Romanum (1969). The ressourcement of late imperial/early medieval sacramentaries for the reformed propers often surpasses the relatively meagre Tridentine propers. The Consilium has also remediated certain morally and ethically problematic aspects of the Tridentine missal (Rita Ferrone has amply demonstrated this point.)

        I reject the hermeneutic of the later stages of the liturgical movement. This rejection is not heterodox since the Vatican has left the interpretation of liturgical science to prudential judgment. The now-predominant interpretation of liturgy through a psychological and sociological frame anachronistically projected onto a conjectured liturgical past is, in my opinion, absolutely not consonant with the received piety of centuries of Catholics. Sacramental participation cannot be quantified by an abstract science. No ideal means of assembly participation in liturgical praxis (e.g. hymnody and responses) exists. However, a now established liturgical science regards academic constructs as self-perpetuating objective interpretations of truly subjective liturgical piety.

        Mass is the entrance of the abiding sacramental presence of our Lord into the temporal world and the objective fulfillment of the Great Commission. This is all the faithful need to know. An affirmation can range from that of my developmentally disabled brother, who once pointed to the Host and said “that’s God”, to a detailed Thomistic analysis. A liturgical praxis can range from meditative silence, to bead telling, to a deep baritone in perfect pitch with the solemn tones. The 1962 missal not only encourages a diversity of expression, but is expressly designed to accommodate an organic and not reified piety. There, then, I worship.

  14. Francis is great. His constant practice assures me that my decision to leave Catholicism was done without much gravity or spiritual consequence.

  15. Does anyone know the status of the official translation of RM3 into Portuguese? Where is this language in the ICEL / Vox Clara process?

    Was Pope Francis simply using the vernacular texts as currently authorised in Brazil?

    1. @Jonathan Day – comment #23:

      Does anyone know the status of the official translation of RM3 into Portuguese? Where is this language in the ICEL / Vox Clara process?

      Was Pope Francis simply using the vernacular texts as currently authorised in Brazil?

      Yes, he was. The word on the street is that the CDW will try to foist a new translation on Portugese speakers, but apparently it hasn’t happened yet.

      And by the way, Vox Clara is a body uniquely set up for the English-speaking world. It has no role in other languages. The same is true of ICEL. Neither has any part to play in what happens in non-English texts.

  16. Fritz, your point makes a lot of sense to me, especially given that praise (in the indicative) is so often followed by petition (in the subjunctive or imperative) in the liturgy. The sequence conveys meaning (CLP §6). It should be possible to preserve it even without the tedious and “slavish” approach of Lit Auth.

    Paul, good catch and a stupid error on my part! Thanks.

  17. Thanks for your observations Fr. Anthony!

    While channel surfing on Wednesday evening, I chanced upon the Aparecita Basilica Mass (being re-run on EWTN).

    Like other commenters, I was impressed by the level of vocal lay participation during the Canon through singing of intersperced acclamations.

    I, too, was immediately reminded of the similar acclamations in the English-language Eucharistic Prayers for Children.

    As a former elementary teacher, I clearly recall the rapt attention of my parochial school children at our school Mass, listening so carefully to the celebrant, awaiting the verbal cue for “their part” —to sing their acclamations.

    I also noted the reprise of a sung acclamation AFTER the proclamation of the sung Gospel reading.

    As for the liturgical “arrangement,” there was a small crucifix on the altar, but the once-typical (ala Benedict XVI) line of large candles on the altar was supplanted by a large circular array of candles in the vicinity of the altar.

    It would be an interesting exercise to gather students of liturgy and do a “video-walk-through / talk-through” of the Aparecida Basilica liturgy.

  18. ” Do not, however, denigrate a heritage which is central to the lives of many.”

    Perhaps “traditionalists” can also stop denigrating the mass form millions attend everyday as “clown masses” or “puppet masses,” something that transpires here as well.

  19. The “Orate Fratres” invitation (before the Prayer over the Offerings) at the first celebration of Mass at Rio, according to the book of texts for papal celebrations there:
    Orai, irmãos e irmãs,
    para que, levando ao altar as alegrias
    e fadigas de cada dia,
    nos disponhamos a oferecer um sacrifício
    aceito por Deus Pai todo-poderoso.
    My rough translation:
    Pray, brothers and sisters,
    so that, placing on the altar the joys
    and the hardships of every day
    we may be ready to offer a sacrifice
    acceptable to God the Father Almighty.
    (Pardon my Portuguese!)

    But later in the week, this changes to:
    Pray, brothers and sisters,
    that the sacrifice of the Church,
    on this refreshing pause
    on the journey to heaven (na caminhada rumo ao céu)
    be acceptable to God the Father Almighty.

    1. @Bill deHaas – comment #43:

      Paul – McDonald’s fast food would be *fine dining* in Macon, GA.

      Since this particular post #43 of Bill de Haas remains after a complaint, on behalf of any hospitable souls remaining participants at this web forum, I apologize to the citizens of Macon, Georgia, for the intemperate and insulting comment he made above. Apparently, he has neither been to Macon, or cannot distinguish personal animus for one of its citizens and all Macon’s citizens.

  20. Fr. Allan,

    I am deeply offended that you wrote this about me and my office:

    “But at that time, the USCCB’s Office of Divine Worship was drunk on power and control and really, really thought they could tell the American bishops and ultimately the Pope what the American English Missal would look like. This was the 1960′s mentality well into the 1990′s on steroids!”

  21. I think Bill is doing us a service by providing material from Fr Allan’s kerfuffle blog, which is far less restrained than anything he writes here.

    It also highlights Fr Allan’s practice of tailoring one’s cloth according to one’s intended target, which is something a good teacher and preacher will do generally. However, when there is such a divergence between both, in terms of content and tone, it does raise questions about what opinions the writer actually holds.

    1. @Gerard Flynn – comment #48:
      Then go read his blog if you are so curious about what Fr Allan thinks. I fail to see what service Bill supposedly provides when virtually all his posts bring up Fr Allan, regardless of whether he has even commented on a blog post yet. It’s one thing to have your own pet topics, but to constantly go on and on about one person is kind of disturbing, and totally inappropriate. Why is Fr Allan’s opinion so important that it takes precedence over everything else that is being discussed? Why is it so loathsome that he might be milder here than at his own blog? What does constantly calling him out accomplish? A first time visitor here would probably wonder what high ranking Church authority Fr Allan must be to warrant such constant and obsessive coverage. I myself wonder why Bill’s behavior is tolerated when far milder stuff gets condemned and deleted on a regular basis.

      1. @Jack Wayne – comment #52:
        I’m not curious enough about what the kerfuffle blog says that I would read it. But I am interested to know that someone who contributes here is writing elsewhere in terms that diverge significantly from what appears here. That allows me to make a judgement on both.

      2. @Gerard Flynn – comment #57:
        The issue is *integrity* and *appropriateness* coming from a catholic parish pastor. Might want to try some Ignatian *indifference*

        Hard to understand the tone and comments direction given Francis in Brazil – would suggest:

        Interior Freedom. “As I witnessed his day by day abandonment of centuries-old custom, I marveled at his joyful, spiritual freedom. I soon realized it manifested his appropriation of the Ignatian value of “indifference.” It is an old-fashioned, philosophical term, borrowed from the Stoics, but what indifference means is freedom from distracting and degrading attachments, so as to be free to do what is more conducive to the good of souls. It has become clear that his aim is to make the church the church of Christ, welcoming to all, and appealing because it shows its care for all people.”

        An Inclusive Church. “The spirit of openness is foundational to the Jesuit way of proceeding. Jesuit churches are known for their inclusiveness and a prescription for a style of encounter that makes condemnation of those in error a last resort.”

        “Having been hauled before the Inquisition a number of times, Ignatius was reluctant to thrust Jesuits into controversy. When he deputed James Lainez and Alfonso Salmeron to serve as papal theologians at the Council of Trent, he advised them not to engage in polemics and whenever possible to urge virtue, especially charity, on their listeners.”

        Humility and Clerical Reform. “Pope Francis’s humility has impressed many people. It is the most radically evangelical aspect of his spiritual reform of the papacy, and he has invited all Catholics, but especially the clergy, to reject success, wealth and power. An aversion to careerism and ecclesial preferment was part of Ignatius’s own approach to reform.

        “Humility is the most difficult part of the Ignatian papal reform, but it is essential for the church’s purification from clericalism, the source of so many ills in the contemporary church. Undoubtedly, it is here that Francis’s reform will receive the most resistance from beneficiaries of the millennial-old system and from recent acolytes who have invested themselves in a post-Tridentine model of the Church Triumphant.”

      3. @Jack Wayne – comment #52:
        I agree with you and the only comments that I do not print, although I am not always consistent, are comments that are cruel or false. However Nothing that Bill or anyone else here trying censorship or censuring of me would be deleted if commented on my blog. I am amused that some here take me more seriously then they should thus giving me an unwarranted status, up there with McDonald’s! . 🙂

  22. More seriously, some people seem to think that “Fr. Bob” is some sort of attempt to be folksy. I was simply offering a different way of thinking about it.

  23. What a lovely response, “he is here in our midst”. So much more meaningful than the obscure and moldy – to use Alan’s term – “and with your spirit”.

    I really really wish that Liturgiam Authenticam be dumped in the trash can where it belongs. It is so antithetical to popular liturgy, which for me has to be inculturated to be authentic.

  24. Graham Wilson : What a lovely response, “he is here in our midst”. So much more meaningful than the obscure and moldy – to use Alan’s term – “and with your spirit”. I really really wish that Liturgiam Authenticam be dumped in the trash can where it belongs. It is so antithetical to popular liturgy, which for me has to be inculturated to be authentic.

    I think the problem with translations like the Portuguese, aside for obscuring the beautiful and meaningful “and with your spirit,” is that it is generally supposed to be the same thing as the Latin or any other translation of the Latin. They are supposed to be the same missal communicating the same meaning, but the translation treats it as if it is instead a new Portuguese rite.

    Let’s say we have a parish with a 9am Portuguese OF and a 10am Latin OF. The two groups are supposedly using the exact same rite, but they aren’t even praying the same thing even in a general sense. And what if a parish decided to do part of the Mass in Latin? At one point the congregation will respond “He is here in our midst” and at another point they will respond “and with thy spirit” in Latin (though they might not even know what they are saying if they are being led to believe “et cum spiritu tuo” is equivalent to “he is here in our midst”).

    If there are to be unique national and vernacular rites, then fine, but they should be recognized as such and not as a translation that is equivalent to the OF.

    1. @Jack Wayne – comment #54:

      I think the problem with translations like the Portuguese, aside for obscuring the beautiful and meaningful “and with your spirit,” is that it is generally supposed to be the same thing as the Latin or any other translation of the Latin.

      The liturgical greeting, at least in western Christian liturgy, is both denotative and connotative. The greeting denotes an invitation to prayer. The greeting connotes the beginning of a new liturgical action. In the EF, the priest’s turn to greet the congregation before the commencement of the offertory is both an invitation to pray and a demarcation of the liturgy of the catechumens from the liturgy of the faithful. The priest’s greeting before the offertory is not a cue to fumble in one’s pockets for coins, despite popular belief 🙂

      A change in the denotative meaning of the greeting does not necessarily change the connotative meaning, and vice versa.

    2. @Jack Wayne – comment #53:
      It’s not only the case that what appears in vernacular liturgies is ‘generally supposed to be the same thing as the Latin’ but also that it would be shaped in terms which will speak to those who are celebrating in the vernacular. “He is here in our midst.” does this eminently, in my opinion.

      There are lots of examples in Judeo-Christian tradition of ‘translations’ which are much more than a close rendering of a text from one language to another. The Targums are Aramaic enculturations of Hebrew texts which diverge widely from the originals. So too is the LXX in many places. That is one aspect which makes them interesting today.

  25. Graham Wilson : I really really wish that Liturgiam Authenticam be dumped in the trash can where it belongs. It is so antithetical to popular liturgy, which for me has to be inculturated to be authentic.

    I like that comment a lot – of course at any given point in time plenty of (often) the most pious and devout members of our religion have slowed down the natural human inclination for change – that is true in religion and in politics – and perhaps it is good that way – we should not rush this way or that way but rather need the time to appreciate what is worth keeping and what deserves to be changed.

  26. Just for the record, the Olive Garden is certainly not fine dining. I am not familiar with Natalia’s or Marco’s. Are they also part of a chain?

    1. @Paul Inwood – comment #66:
      No these are locally owned by actual Italians from Italy and are expensive; customers from metro Atlanta drive to Macon to eat there. BTY, Nuway, a fine hotdog joint is a half of block away from the Church, the closest fine dining to me in walking distance if you don’t count the McDonald’s in the city hospital directly behind the church.

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