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	<title>Comments for PrayTellBlog</title>
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	<description>Worship, Wit &#38; Wisdom</description>
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Samuel J. Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027360</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel J. Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 13:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1026022&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jonathan Day&lt;/a&gt; - comment #19:
&lt;i&gt;By “response bias” I mean that those with a particular opinion would be more likely to respond. We have agreed that there may be response bias. The problem is that it’s difficult to know which way it cuts.&lt;/i&gt;

Whether it&#039;s selection bias or response bias, it&#039;s still bias.  And even if it&#039;s only potential bias, it means that the survey constructors should not be making statements like saying that a majority of Catholic priests dislike the new missal.  There&#039;s no way that they can exclude the possibility of a 10% swing in the response bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1026022" rel="nofollow">Jonathan Day</a> &#8211; comment #19:<br />
<i>By “response bias” I mean that those with a particular opinion would be more likely to respond. We have agreed that there may be response bias. The problem is that it’s difficult to know which way it cuts.</i></p>
<p>Whether it&#8217;s selection bias or response bias, it&#8217;s still bias.  And even if it&#8217;s only potential bias, it means that the survey constructors should not be making statements like saying that a majority of Catholic priests dislike the new missal.  There&#8217;s no way that they can exclude the possibility of a 10% swing in the response bias.<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Mike Burns</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027301</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 13:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1027279&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fr. Allan J. McDonald&lt;/a&gt; - comment #37:
Fr. Allan,
Pope Francis did not perform an exorcism on Pentecost Sunday.
&quot;The Holy Father had no intention to perform any exorcism,&quot; the Rev. Federico Lombardi said in a statement. &quot;Instead, as he frequently does for the sick and suffering persons who approach him, he simply meant to pray for a suffering person who was presented to him.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1027279" rel="nofollow">Fr. Allan J. McDonald</a> &#8211; comment #37:<br />
Fr. Allan,<br />
Pope Francis did not perform an exorcism on Pentecost Sunday.<br />
&#8220;The Holy Father had no intention to perform any exorcism,&#8221; the Rev. Federico Lombardi said in a statement. &#8220;Instead, as he frequently does for the sick and suffering persons who approach him, he simply meant to pray for a suffering person who was presented to him.&#8221;<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Fr. Allan J. McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027279</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan J. McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 12:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1027228&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jack Rakosky&lt;/a&gt; - comment #35:
I think that Pope Benedict was more academic in his priesthood and style of leadership and a better description than &quot;cultic model.&quot; Certainly Pope Francis is less interested in academic rhetoric and models a servant leadership style but also clearly cultic, as evidenced in the impromptu, more devotional than by the book, exorcism he performed on Pentecost Sunday, but that ties in very well with his desire for the Church to recover popular devotions and sacramentals which are cultic too.  But the real legacy of Pope Benedict following on the inspiration of the Pope John Paul II&#039;s generation of priests is &quot;evangelical Catholicism and priesthood&quot; which is  a mix of the cultic and servant style, denigrating neither.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1027228" rel="nofollow">Jack Rakosky</a> &#8211; comment #35:<br />
I think that Pope Benedict was more academic in his priesthood and style of leadership and a better description than &#8220;cultic model.&#8221; Certainly Pope Francis is less interested in academic rhetoric and models a servant leadership style but also clearly cultic, as evidenced in the impromptu, more devotional than by the book, exorcism he performed on Pentecost Sunday, but that ties in very well with his desire for the Church to recover popular devotions and sacramentals which are cultic too.  But the real legacy of Pope Benedict following on the inspiration of the Pope John Paul II&#8217;s generation of priests is &#8220;evangelical Catholicism and priesthood&#8221; which is  a mix of the cultic and servant style, denigrating neither.<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Jack Rakosky</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027266</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Rakosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 12:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1027228&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jack Rakosky&lt;/a&gt; - comment #35:

&lt;b&gt;Social Science Methodological Note&lt;/b&gt;: 

While the methodological section of a social science report is important, the data section and how this relates to previous research and theory (the introduction and discussions) are just as important in evaluating the overall value of the study.  

One of the enlightening experiences of graduate study is to criticize all the many methodological faults of many of the classical studies that have shaped psychology and sociology. Theories and interesting data advance science as much as methodology. As with most things, both/and is necessary in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1027228" rel="nofollow">Jack Rakosky</a> &#8211; comment #35:</p>
<p><b>Social Science Methodological Note</b>: </p>
<p>While the methodological section of a social science report is important, the data section and how this relates to previous research and theory (the introduction and discussions) are just as important in evaluating the overall value of the study.  </p>
<p>One of the enlightening experiences of graduate study is to criticize all the many methodological faults of many of the classical studies that have shaped psychology and sociology. Theories and interesting data advance science as much as methodology. As with most things, both/and is necessary in the long run.<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Jack Rakosky</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027228</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Rakosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 12:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1026123&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jack Rakosky&lt;/a&gt; - comment #24:

The 2001 National Federation of Priests’ Council study, &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Evolving Visons of the Priesthood &lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; (still available from Liturgical Press) was the last done by Dean Hoge. It features his model of priesthood generations in which he contrasts the“Servant Leadership Model“ of the Vatican II  generation of young priests with the “Cultic Leadership Model” both of Pre-Vatican II generation of priests and of the younger priests since 1980 who have seen JP2 and B16 as their models. 

Generational models are important sociological explanatory tools. The basic idea is that each generation is overly influenced by the things that they experience in their youth (teens and twenties) and these experiences tend to shape them for life. While this is true, there is still much change that occurs throughout the life cycle even if later events tend to have less influence. Therefore I was glad that when CARA took over the latest study after Hoge’s death that they placed more emphasis upon the many other situational factors that are beginning to influence priestly ministry other than the generational model.

However when it comes to the current 2013 Diekmann study, I have no doubt that generational factors and “servant leader” versus “cultic” models of the priesthood explain much (but not all) the results. The results seem to perfectly fit what I would expect from prior studies factoring in new ordinations and deaths. Unfortunately (for those who are skeptical of the results) old priests never die they just fade away (i.e. they continue to say Mass even after they retire). 

So the implementation of the New Missal has not only alienated the majority of priests, it has also thrown gasoline on the fires of intergenerational conflict. Shame on the poor management skills of the American bishops!

In my review of the more recent CARA study I took pains to express my conviction that both servant leadership (emphasis upon ministry to people) and cultic (emphasis upon worship) models of the priesthood have long histories in the Church and both deserve support and should not be seen as in conflict with each other. As if we could ever separate the love of God and the love of others!

Pope Francis as a Jesuit has a more “servant leader” model of the priesthood than Pope Benedict (whose cultic model was influenced to some degree by aspects of the Benedictine tradition). Will more “servant leaders” interested in evangelization and the poor began to show up in the coming  years in our seminaries? We don’t know. Hoge in his book criticizes most of the explanations for the revival of the cultic model among seminarians since the eighties. The one certainly he points out is that it did not come from American Catholic laity in general since these have steadily become more liberal!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1026123" rel="nofollow">Jack Rakosky</a> &#8211; comment #24:</p>
<p>The 2001 National Federation of Priests’ Council study, <i><b>Evolving Visons of the Priesthood </b></i> (still available from Liturgical Press) was the last done by Dean Hoge. It features his model of priesthood generations in which he contrasts the“Servant Leadership Model“ of the Vatican II  generation of young priests with the “Cultic Leadership Model” both of Pre-Vatican II generation of priests and of the younger priests since 1980 who have seen JP2 and B16 as their models. </p>
<p>Generational models are important sociological explanatory tools. The basic idea is that each generation is overly influenced by the things that they experience in their youth (teens and twenties) and these experiences tend to shape them for life. While this is true, there is still much change that occurs throughout the life cycle even if later events tend to have less influence. Therefore I was glad that when CARA took over the latest study after Hoge’s death that they placed more emphasis upon the many other situational factors that are beginning to influence priestly ministry other than the generational model.</p>
<p>However when it comes to the current 2013 Diekmann study, I have no doubt that generational factors and “servant leader” versus “cultic” models of the priesthood explain much (but not all) the results. The results seem to perfectly fit what I would expect from prior studies factoring in new ordinations and deaths. Unfortunately (for those who are skeptical of the results) old priests never die they just fade away (i.e. they continue to say Mass even after they retire). </p>
<p>So the implementation of the New Missal has not only alienated the majority of priests, it has also thrown gasoline on the fires of intergenerational conflict. Shame on the poor management skills of the American bishops!</p>
<p>In my review of the more recent CARA study I took pains to express my conviction that both servant leadership (emphasis upon ministry to people) and cultic (emphasis upon worship) models of the priesthood have long histories in the Church and both deserve support and should not be seen as in conflict with each other. As if we could ever separate the love of God and the love of others!</p>
<p>Pope Francis as a Jesuit has a more “servant leader” model of the priesthood than Pope Benedict (whose cultic model was influenced to some degree by aspects of the Benedictine tradition). Will more “servant leaders” interested in evangelization and the poor began to show up in the coming  years in our seminaries? We don’t know. Hoge in his book criticizes most of the explanations for the revival of the cultic model among seminarians since the eighties. The one certainly he points out is that it did not come from American Catholic laity in general since these have steadily become more liberal!<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Fr. Allan J. McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027199</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan J. McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 11:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1027148&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Todd Flowerday&lt;/a&gt; - comment #33:
Well, Todd, as Pope Francis is calling for a reform of the clergy, religious and laity (what I&#039;d like to call another phase of the &quot;reform of the reform in continuity, but applied now to souls&quot; I think it is appropriate to critique sin and call people to repentance and fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church in the areas of faith, morals and Church discipline (canon law, etc). Just this morning the Holy Father called the Chinese National Governmental Church to fidelity to the Successor of Saint Peter, i.e. the living Magisterium of the Church. Implicit in that is a criticism of separating oneself or group from the Magisterium .
These are the Holy Father&#039;s words, not mine, to the Chinese Catholics this morning:
He said : “I urge all Catholics around the world to join in prayer with our brothers and sisters who are in China, to implore from God the grace to proclaim with humility and joy Christ, who died and rose again; to be faithful to His Church and the Successor of Peter and to live everyday life in service to their country and their fellow citizens in a way that is consistent with the faith they profess.&quot;
This pope is calling for fidelity to the Magisterium. I don&#039;t think fidelity is a four letter word when applied to the legitimate authority of the Church and the faith and morals of the Church as well as her discipline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1027148" rel="nofollow">Todd Flowerday</a> &#8211; comment #33:<br />
Well, Todd, as Pope Francis is calling for a reform of the clergy, religious and laity (what I&#8217;d like to call another phase of the &#8220;reform of the reform in continuity, but applied now to souls&#8221; I think it is appropriate to critique sin and call people to repentance and fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church in the areas of faith, morals and Church discipline (canon law, etc). Just this morning the Holy Father called the Chinese National Governmental Church to fidelity to the Successor of Saint Peter, i.e. the living Magisterium of the Church. Implicit in that is a criticism of separating oneself or group from the Magisterium .<br />
These are the Holy Father&#8217;s words, not mine, to the Chinese Catholics this morning:<br />
He said : “I urge all Catholics around the world to join in prayer with our brothers and sisters who are in China, to implore from God the grace to proclaim with humility and joy Christ, who died and rose again; to be faithful to His Church and the Successor of Peter and to live everyday life in service to their country and their fellow citizens in a way that is consistent with the faith they profess.&#8221;<br />
This pope is calling for fidelity to the Magisterium. I don&#8217;t think fidelity is a four letter word when applied to the legitimate authority of the Church and the faith and morals of the Church as well as her discipline.<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Todd Flowerday</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1027148</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Flowerday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 11:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1026961&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fr. Allan J. McDonald&lt;/a&gt; - comment #32:
A church of critics ... would that include criticisms of lay people&#039;s use of contraceptives, who we invite to college commencements, our workshop line-ups, our materialism, our lack of Mass attendance on holy days, and our alleged lack of a sense of sin?

I do think this poll gives us a window as to how MR3 was implemented by bishops with their clergy.

&quot;I don’t think I’ve heard any negative comments whatsoever ...&quot;

This isn&#039;t surprising. It&#039;s also largely the experience of popes and bishops everywhere. Quick question: good thing or bad thing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1026961" rel="nofollow">Fr. Allan J. McDonald</a> &#8211; comment #32:<br />
A church of critics &#8230; would that include criticisms of lay people&#8217;s use of contraceptives, who we invite to college commencements, our workshop line-ups, our materialism, our lack of Mass attendance on holy days, and our alleged lack of a sense of sin?</p>
<p>I do think this poll gives us a window as to how MR3 was implemented by bishops with their clergy.</p>
<p>&#8220;I don’t think I’ve heard any negative comments whatsoever &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t surprising. It&#8217;s also largely the experience of popes and bishops everywhere. Quick question: good thing or bad thing?<br />
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		<title>Comment on Collect for the Most Holy Trinity by Fritz Bauerschmidt</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/20/collect-for-the-most-holy-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-1027086</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz Bauerschmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 10:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1025927&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jonathan Day&lt;/a&gt; - comment #8:
To pick a nit, it would be material heresy, not formal, since I doubt any of the &quot;translators&quot; are Arians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1025927" rel="nofollow">Jonathan Day</a> &#8211; comment #8:<br />
To pick a nit, it would be material heresy, not formal, since I doubt any of the &#8220;translators&#8221; are Arians.<br />
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		<title>Comment on Collect for the Most Holy Trinity by Jordan Zarembo</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/20/collect-for-the-most-holy-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-1027069</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Zarembo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 10:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1026916&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jonathan Day&lt;/a&gt; - comment #12:

Completely true, Jonathan.  I just enjoy sociolinguistics.  Hopefully one day I will be paid to do it ;-)

I doubt what we laypersons, or even the vast majority of the clergy, will ever truly find out why these simple translation mistakes were made.  Even the half-drunk medieval monks who helped to shape the classical Latin works as we know them today performed well as redactors.  They displayed a well-rounded knowledge of the language outside of translation into vernaculars.  (With all due respect to the good monks of St. John&#039;s Abbey, boiling during the brewing process served as a good water disinfectant.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-1026916" rel="nofollow">Jonathan Day</a> &#8211; comment #12:</p>
<p>Completely true, Jonathan.  I just enjoy sociolinguistics.  Hopefully one day I will be paid to do it <img src='http://www.praytellblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I doubt what we laypersons, or even the vast majority of the clergy, will ever truly find out why these simple translation mistakes were made.  Even the half-drunk medieval monks who helped to shape the classical Latin works as we know them today performed well as redactors.  They displayed a well-rounded knowledge of the language outside of translation into vernaculars.  (With all due respect to the good monks of St. John&#8217;s Abbey, boiling during the brewing process served as a good water disinfectant.)<br />
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		<title>Comment on What US Priests Really Think About the New Translation by Fr. Allan J. McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/05/21/what-us-priests-really-think-about-the-new-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-1026961</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan J. McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 09:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=19658#comment-1026961</guid>
		<description>We have become a Church of critics. Like one spouse who continually criticizes the other, constant critiquing usually ends up in division and divorce. While I recognize that the professionals in the Church, mainly clergy and of a particular ideological bent, are dissatisfied with the translation, I&#039;d be more impressed with a poll of the laity. But those polls should indicate how the new translation was implemented in the parishes surveyed, positively, reluctantly or negatively by those in charge of implementing it, the clergy. I suspect that would have an effect on the attitudes surveyed. Except for the inconvenience caused by the shift in some parts of the laity&#039;s responses, after almost two years of this new translation, I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve heard any negative comments whatsoever and certainly none concerning what the priest prays. I suspect only those who are in tuned with the negativity that abounds in the Church today would have negative sentiments about the translation at this point. That begs the question, of the more than 60 million Catholics in the USA, how many read Praytell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have become a Church of critics. Like one spouse who continually criticizes the other, constant critiquing usually ends up in division and divorce. While I recognize that the professionals in the Church, mainly clergy and of a particular ideological bent, are dissatisfied with the translation, I&#8217;d be more impressed with a poll of the laity. But those polls should indicate how the new translation was implemented in the parishes surveyed, positively, reluctantly or negatively by those in charge of implementing it, the clergy. I suspect that would have an effect on the attitudes surveyed. Except for the inconvenience caused by the shift in some parts of the laity&#8217;s responses, after almost two years of this new translation, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve heard any negative comments whatsoever and certainly none concerning what the priest prays. I suspect only those who are in tuned with the negativity that abounds in the Church today would have negative sentiments about the translation at this point. That begs the question, of the more than 60 million Catholics in the USA, how many read Praytell?<br />
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