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	<title>Comments on: Another new setting</title>
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	<description>Worship, Wit &#38; Wisdom</description>
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		<title>By: Nick Baty</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72354</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Baty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, of course. My point was simply that, because of the change of time signature, the musical connection is more subtle than some other settings. I was, clumsily, being complimentary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, of course. My point was simply that, because of the change of time signature, the musical connection is more subtle than some other settings. I was, clumsily, being complimentary.<br />
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		<title>By: Bruce Ludwick, Jr.</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72183</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Ludwick, Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Karl, I&#039;ll bite here in your favor.  I think it to be very restrictive to view these only in the ways listed above.  Your comment at 12:13 above to David is right on the money.  Whether we want to agree or not, I think it is tough to argue to composers like Victoria (a cleric) really didn&#039;t intend that their Sanctus settings weren&#039;t part of the liturgy.  Gelineau&#039;s thoughts on the post-conciliar changes are well-known, but not the only &quot;correct&quot; interpretation.  A liberal, diverse understanding of the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, and Amen are the best path forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, I&#8217;ll bite here in your favor.  I think it to be very restrictive to view these only in the ways listed above.  Your comment at 12:13 above to David is right on the money.  Whether we want to agree or not, I think it is tough to argue to composers like Victoria (a cleric) really didn&#8217;t intend that their Sanctus settings weren&#8217;t part of the liturgy.  Gelineau&#8217;s thoughts on the post-conciliar changes are well-known, but not the only &#8220;correct&#8221; interpretation.  A liberal, diverse understanding of the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, and Amen are the best path forward.<br />
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		<title>By: Fritz Bauerschmidt</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72113</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz Bauerschmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul,

Are we now quoting the Vox Clara translation of the Missal as authoritative? The Latin prefaces almost all end with &lt;i&gt;sine fines dicentes&lt;/i&gt;, with only an occasional &lt;i&gt;sin fine clamantes&lt;/i&gt; (e.g. the first preface for martyrs or the fifth preface for ordinary time). &quot;Without end we acclaim&quot; seems to vbe a VCism. Moreover, several of the prefaces speak of our joining in the angels&#039; &lt;i&gt;hymnum&lt;/i&gt; (e.g. all the Easter prefaces). The rubric says that the celebrant and people &lt;i&gt;cantans vel clara voce dicens&lt;/i&gt;. So if we look at the Latin there is not a lot of &quot;acclaiming&quot; going in connection with the Sanctus.

You are, however, correct that in connection with the &lt;i&gt;Mysterium fidei&lt;/i&gt; the verb &lt;i&gt;acclamat&lt;/i&gt; is used. 

I&#039;m not sure a lot can be made of the specific phraseology in either case, but it is good to remember that even when dealing with the new &quot;corrected&quot; translation of the Missal a good principle is &lt;i&gt;caveat lector&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>Are we now quoting the Vox Clara translation of the Missal as authoritative? The Latin prefaces almost all end with <i>sine fines dicentes</i>, with only an occasional <i>sin fine clamantes</i> (e.g. the first preface for martyrs or the fifth preface for ordinary time). &#8220;Without end we acclaim&#8221; seems to vbe a VCism. Moreover, several of the prefaces speak of our joining in the angels&#8217; <i>hymnum</i> (e.g. all the Easter prefaces). The rubric says that the celebrant and people <i>cantans vel clara voce dicens</i>. So if we look at the Latin there is not a lot of &#8220;acclaiming&#8221; going in connection with the Sanctus.</p>
<p>You are, however, correct that in connection with the <i>Mysterium fidei</i> the verb <i>acclamat</i> is used. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure a lot can be made of the specific phraseology in either case, but it is good to remember that even when dealing with the new &#8220;corrected&#8221; translation of the Missal a good principle is <i>caveat lector</i>.<br />
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		<title>By: Karl Liam Saur</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72072</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Liam Saur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually, you are conceding that they are different literary forms. That was my point about the textual forms. There is nothing in the reforming documents that *requires* that they be composed of a piece and *excludes* a mix of compositions for them. On that score, I don&#039;t think I am fighting a losing battle, as it were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you are conceding that they are different literary forms. That was my point about the textual forms. There is nothing in the reforming documents that *requires* that they be composed of a piece and *excludes* a mix of compositions for them. On that score, I don&#8217;t think I am fighting a losing battle, as it were.<br />
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		<title>By: Paul Inwood</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72061</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Inwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Karl, you&#039;re fighting a losing battle here, I&#039;m afraid.

Read Gelineau on the history of Mysterium Fidei and the memorial acclamations in the postconciliar EP. It is quite clear that all these &lt;i&gt;interventions&lt;/i&gt; (French for &quot;interpolations&quot;) in the Prayer are considered as acclamations, as indeed are the more numerous examples in some of the EPs for Masses with Children.

The Order of Mass itself reinforces this. Many Prefaces end &quot;as without end we acclaim&quot; or similar words before the Sanctus. The rubric introducing the Memorial Acclamation runs &quot;And the people continue, acclaiming:&quot; and the rubric introducing the Great Amen says &quot;The people acclaim:&quot;

They may have different literary forms, but they are all &lt;b&gt;functionally&lt;/b&gt; acclamations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, you&#8217;re fighting a losing battle here, I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
<p>Read Gelineau on the history of Mysterium Fidei and the memorial acclamations in the postconciliar EP. It is quite clear that all these <i>interventions</i> (French for &#8220;interpolations&#8221;) in the Prayer are considered as acclamations, as indeed are the more numerous examples in some of the EPs for Masses with Children.</p>
<p>The Order of Mass itself reinforces this. Many Prefaces end &#8220;as without end we acclaim&#8221; or similar words before the Sanctus. The rubric introducing the Memorial Acclamation runs &#8220;And the people continue, acclaiming:&#8221; and the rubric introducing the Great Amen says &#8220;The people acclaim:&#8221;</p>
<p>They may have different literary forms, but they are all <b>functionally</b> acclamations.<br />
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		<title>By: Paul Inwood</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-72045</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Inwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 05:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually, Nick, the melody of the Amens in my Conventry Acclamations is an almost exact repetition of the three &quot;heaven and earth are full&quot; phrases in the Holy, not to mention the three &quot;Blest is he who comes&quot; phrases, so yes, melodically connected as well as harmonically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Nick, the melody of the Amens in my Conventry Acclamations is an almost exact repetition of the three &#8220;heaven and earth are full&#8221; phrases in the Holy, not to mention the three &#8220;Blest is he who comes&#8221; phrases, so yes, melodically connected as well as harmonically.<br />
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		<title>By: David Haas</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-71933</link>
		<dc:creator>David Haas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 00:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Regardless - these are still acclamations...because they acclaim the prayer that the priest prays in our name.... while the musical genre or approach can differ.. their liturgical function is what is primary, not musical variety, or concerns about any &quot;musical amnesia&quot; as you put it.  The Council Fathers, and the liturgical movement that preceded and flowed from the council - was concerned about the Eucharistic Prayer, the great prayer of thanksgiving.  This is at the center ofthe context for understanding that they are acclamations...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless &#8211; these are still acclamations&#8230;because they acclaim the prayer that the priest prays in our name&#8230;. while the musical genre or approach can differ.. their liturgical function is what is primary, not musical variety, or concerns about any &#8220;musical amnesia&#8221; as you put it.  The Council Fathers, and the liturgical movement that preceded and flowed from the council &#8211; was concerned about the Eucharistic Prayer, the great prayer of thanksgiving.  This is at the center ofthe context for understanding that they are acclamations&#8230;<br />
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		<title>By: Karl Liam Saur</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-71928</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Liam Saur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Effectively, because there were no memorial acclamations composed before 1970, that has the perhaps intentional effect of musical amnesia not envisioned by the Council Fathers. If it is read restrictively in that way, it&#039;s not a good rule.

Even within the compositions of the last 4 decades, the quality within a given composer&#039;s setting can often be highly variable, so that it&#039;s more appropriate to mix-and-match, as it were rather than sticking to the unity of the musical setting, without compromising at all the sense of the anaphora as a unity.  The intention of the composers is not dispositive in this regard....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Effectively, because there were no memorial acclamations composed before 1970, that has the perhaps intentional effect of musical amnesia not envisioned by the Council Fathers. If it is read restrictively in that way, it&#8217;s not a good rule.</p>
<p>Even within the compositions of the last 4 decades, the quality within a given composer&#8217;s setting can often be highly variable, so that it&#8217;s more appropriate to mix-and-match, as it were rather than sticking to the unity of the musical setting, without compromising at all the sense of the anaphora as a unity.  The intention of the composers is not dispositive in this regard&#8230;.<br />
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		<title>By: Nick Baty</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-71916</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Baty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 22:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The guidance here in the UK isn&#039;t that the Eucharistic Acclamations should be based on the same melodic material – which many composers are doing anyway – but that &quot;settings of the Eucharistic Acclamations should offer the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamations and Great Amen as a unified setting&quot;.

Chris Walker does this rather well in his rewrite of &quot;A Celtic Liturgy&quot; (as he did in the original) where the acclamations don&#039;t use exactly the same melodic material but they are united by their tonality.

Paul Inwood does this equally well in his &quot;Coventry Acclamtions&quot;: the Amen is harmonically, rather than melodically, connected to the Holy, making the link much more subtle than in some settings around at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The guidance here in the UK isn&#8217;t that the Eucharistic Acclamations should be based on the same melodic material – which many composers are doing anyway – but that &#8220;settings of the Eucharistic Acclamations should offer the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamations and Great Amen as a unified setting&#8221;.</p>
<p>Chris Walker does this rather well in his rewrite of &#8220;A Celtic Liturgy&#8221; (as he did in the original) where the acclamations don&#8217;t use exactly the same melodic material but they are united by their tonality.</p>
<p>Paul Inwood does this equally well in his &#8220;Coventry Acclamtions&#8221;: the Amen is harmonically, rather than melodically, connected to the Holy, making the link much more subtle than in some settings around at the moment.<br />
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		<title>By: Karl Liam Saur</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2011/09/12/another-new-setting/comment-page-1/#comment-71864</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Liam Saur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that is too rigid if it&#039;s an exclusive framework, and not one that was adopted by the Council Fathers. It&#039;s certainly an option, but not the only reasonable one. 

Also, plenty of preconciliar composers composed *within* the liturgical context, and the Council took pains to avoid entirely excluding that music from the reformed liturgy. A rigid approach that effectively proscribes such music entirely is not a good working rule from the perspective the conciliar reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that is too rigid if it&#8217;s an exclusive framework, and not one that was adopted by the Council Fathers. It&#8217;s certainly an option, but not the only reasonable one. </p>
<p>Also, plenty of preconciliar composers composed *within* the liturgical context, and the Council took pains to avoid entirely excluding that music from the reformed liturgy. A rigid approach that effectively proscribes such music entirely is not a good working rule from the perspective the conciliar reform.<br />
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