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	<title>Comments on: The Genius of the Roman Rite, by Keith Pecklers SJ</title>
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	<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/</link>
	<description>Worship, Wit &#38; Wisdom</description>
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		<title>By: Joe O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14344</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14344</guid>
		<description>&quot;he proves beyond any shadow of doubt that “recent appeals to the unchanging Roman Rite that has been in continuous usage until the Second Vatican Council would appear to be disingenuous&quot;

&quot;Would anyone care to comment on this extraordinary accusation?&quot;

Of course the Roman Rite has known many changes -- even between Trent and Vatican II. Note that the change of liturgical language from Greek to Latin in the 4th century was itself a great change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;he proves beyond any shadow of doubt that “recent appeals to the unchanging Roman Rite that has been in continuous usage until the Second Vatican Council would appear to be disingenuous&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Would anyone care to comment on this extraordinary accusation?&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course the Roman Rite has known many changes &#8212; even between Trent and Vatican II. Note that the change of liturgical language from Greek to Latin in the 4th century was itself a great change.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14334</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 01:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14334</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think they are looking so much for a &quot;gotcha&quot; moment in the documents, so much as noticing some things mentioned in the documents are conspicuously absent from the liturgies they grew up with or have experienced since the council.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think they are looking so much for a &#8220;gotcha&#8221; moment in the documents, so much as noticing some things mentioned in the documents are conspicuously absent from the liturgies they grew up with or have experienced since the council.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14333</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 01:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14333</guid>
		<description>Perhaps my comment above was out of line and not well reasoned. Apologies.

I am curious what others here think of my other thought in regards to the old mass not being abrogated. As I said above, the language that accompanied the promulgation of the OF would seem to indicate that the old Mass was not meant to remain in use, yet the subsequent actions of Paul VI and future Popes have preserved the old rite and allowed for its continued use. It would seem that there has never been a time since the promulgation of the OF that the now-EF was totally suppressed. Can something be abrogated, yet still allowed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps my comment above was out of line and not well reasoned. Apologies.</p>
<p>I am curious what others here think of my other thought in regards to the old mass not being abrogated. As I said above, the language that accompanied the promulgation of the OF would seem to indicate that the old Mass was not meant to remain in use, yet the subsequent actions of Paul VI and future Popes have preserved the old rite and allowed for its continued use. It would seem that there has never been a time since the promulgation of the OF that the now-EF was totally suppressed. Can something be abrogated, yet still allowed?</p>
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		<title>By: Rita Ferrone</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14331</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita Ferrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14331</guid>
		<description>Jack you are claiming that the Missal was displaced by something different, that Paul VI had no mandate to &quot;create&quot; a &quot;new missal&quot; but that&#039;s just not a responsible claim. 

First of all, the resulting text that came from the reform of the Missal was the Roman Rite, not something &quot;different.&quot; Second, Paul VI had the mandate to do what was done, and he got it from the Council. He authorized the reform with full knowledge of what was in it. He did it in obedience to the Council&#039;s wishes, not against them.

You may have read the whole of SC, but the assumption that the Council fathers wanted and authorized only something that was very similar to the old liturgy is an assumption on your part, and it is false. SC does ask for a reform of the whole liturgy, not just some tinkering. The Mass, the sacraments, the whole thing. If what they wanted is the sort of minor adjustments that the Pope himself could do, and did do, in years past (as Pius XII and John XXIII did, etc.) they did not need an ecumenical council to enact it. If what they wanted was the 1962 Missal, they already had it. What were they asking for, if not a new Missal, new ritual, etc.? You say &quot;let&#039;s be honest&quot; and yet the facts are squarely against your interpretation of the situation. Yes, let&#039;s be honest. By all means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack you are claiming that the Missal was displaced by something different, that Paul VI had no mandate to &#8220;create&#8221; a &#8220;new missal&#8221; but that&#8217;s just not a responsible claim. </p>
<p>First of all, the resulting text that came from the reform of the Missal was the Roman Rite, not something &#8220;different.&#8221; Second, Paul VI had the mandate to do what was done, and he got it from the Council. He authorized the reform with full knowledge of what was in it. He did it in obedience to the Council&#8217;s wishes, not against them.</p>
<p>You may have read the whole of SC, but the assumption that the Council fathers wanted and authorized only something that was very similar to the old liturgy is an assumption on your part, and it is false. SC does ask for a reform of the whole liturgy, not just some tinkering. The Mass, the sacraments, the whole thing. If what they wanted is the sort of minor adjustments that the Pope himself could do, and did do, in years past (as Pius XII and John XXIII did, etc.) they did not need an ecumenical council to enact it. If what they wanted was the 1962 Missal, they already had it. What were they asking for, if not a new Missal, new ritual, etc.? You say &#8220;let&#8217;s be honest&#8221; and yet the facts are squarely against your interpretation of the situation. Yes, let&#8217;s be honest. By all means.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Flowerday</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14330</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Flowerday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14330</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an easy-enough assumption: Catholics don&#039;t read documents. Unfortunately, it&#039;s borne out on any number of sites. But this site probably not so much.

Perhaps some well-meaning Catholics watch too much tv: looking for gotcha! moments in the documents, rather than read them in a logical, if not a Roman way. Maybe said Catholics have some of their number in curial hallways, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an easy-enough assumption: Catholics don&#8217;t read documents. Unfortunately, it&#8217;s borne out on any number of sites. But this site probably not so much.</p>
<p>Perhaps some well-meaning Catholics watch too much tv: looking for gotcha! moments in the documents, rather than read them in a logical, if not a Roman way. Maybe said Catholics have some of their number in curial hallways, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Ruff, OSB</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14329</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Ruff, OSB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14329</guid>
		<description>OK, I&#039;m sorry for my tone. But I find it frustrating that the charge &quot;illegitimate reform&quot; is now made so often without being backed up. My only point was that there are things in SC which justify all the structural reforms Paul VI approved, and some things in SC would justify even further reforms, and that is being overlooked.

I was in grade school for most of the 70s. My beliefs about Vatican II, and the legitimacy of Paul VI&#039;s reform, come from my more recent study. I&#039;m sorry that I was too zealous in defending the Pope.
awr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I&#8217;m sorry for my tone. But I find it frustrating that the charge &#8220;illegitimate reform&#8221; is now made so often without being backed up. My only point was that there are things in SC which justify all the structural reforms Paul VI approved, and some things in SC would justify even further reforms, and that is being overlooked.</p>
<p>I was in grade school for most of the 70s. My beliefs about Vatican II, and the legitimacy of Paul VI&#8217;s reform, come from my more recent study. I&#8217;m sorry that I was too zealous in defending the Pope.<br />
awr</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14328</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 18:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14328</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you shouldn&#039;t condescendingly assume that those who disagree with you haven&#039;t read all of SC. I did, and was rather disillusioned by it. I&#039;m not claiming I know the council better than anyone else, but I think I have a right to read the documents and raise concerns that seem to come from that reading. Perhaps I would have had to have lived through the 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s to &quot;get it,&quot; I don&#039;t know. Maybe the Vatican II reform only makes sense if you read virtually everything that came out for the decade afterward (something I have not done). But the concerns I raised above echo those of other younger Catholics I know (even those who don&#039;t like the old Mass) who have read Vatican II documents. Those of us who actually look for the documents, read them, and try to understand them tend to be puzzled at how they don&#039;t *seem* to jibe with what we&#039;d been led to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps you shouldn&#8217;t condescendingly assume that those who disagree with you haven&#8217;t read all of SC. I did, and was rather disillusioned by it. I&#8217;m not claiming I know the council better than anyone else, but I think I have a right to read the documents and raise concerns that seem to come from that reading. Perhaps I would have had to have lived through the 60&#8242;s and 70&#8242;s to &#8220;get it,&#8221; I don&#8217;t know. Maybe the Vatican II reform only makes sense if you read virtually everything that came out for the decade afterward (something I have not done). But the concerns I raised above echo those of other younger Catholics I know (even those who don&#8217;t like the old Mass) who have read Vatican II documents. Those of us who actually look for the documents, read them, and try to understand them tend to be puzzled at how they don&#8217;t *seem* to jibe with what we&#8217;d been led to believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Ruff, OSB</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14327</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Ruff, OSB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 18:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14327</guid>
		<description>Well I&#039;d be very careful at presuming to second-guess how Pope Paul VI implemented Vatican II and thinking that I understand the Council better than he  - although I know a lot of people now think they can do exactly that. Vatican II said many things, and plenty statements in SC suggest thoroughgoing revisions, perhaps further than what we got. Other statements suggest caution. It is outrageous that some people are now picking only a very few statements from V2 to say the reforms didn&#039;t follow the Council faithfully. This is pure baloney - no matter how often it is now being repeated - and it is high time someone gets called on it. Read all of SC, not just 3 or 4 articles.

I&#039;m always amazed that people making the most noise about &quot;the reformed liturgy didn&#039;t follow the intent of V2&quot; have no problem with the Holy See taking over translation, though V2 says explicitly that this is the role of bishops within a territory, not the Vatican. If these people really believed we should follow the letter of V2, they would be crying bloody murder at the illegitimacy of the upcoming missal. That they aren&#039;t is a good illustration of their selective reading of V2.

My point isn&#039;t that the upcoming missal is illegitimate. I don&#039;t say that. My point is consistency in interpretation.
awr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I&#8217;d be very careful at presuming to second-guess how Pope Paul VI implemented Vatican II and thinking that I understand the Council better than he  &#8211; although I know a lot of people now think they can do exactly that. Vatican II said many things, and plenty statements in SC suggest thoroughgoing revisions, perhaps further than what we got. Other statements suggest caution. It is outrageous that some people are now picking only a very few statements from V2 to say the reforms didn&#8217;t follow the Council faithfully. This is pure baloney &#8211; no matter how often it is now being repeated &#8211; and it is high time someone gets called on it. Read all of SC, not just 3 or 4 articles.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m always amazed that people making the most noise about &#8220;the reformed liturgy didn&#8217;t follow the intent of V2&#8243; have no problem with the Holy See taking over translation, though V2 says explicitly that this is the role of bishops within a territory, not the Vatican. If these people really believed we should follow the letter of V2, they would be crying bloody murder at the illegitimacy of the upcoming missal. That they aren&#8217;t is a good illustration of their selective reading of V2.</p>
<p>My point isn&#8217;t that the upcoming missal is illegitimate. I don&#8217;t say that. My point is consistency in interpretation.<br />
awr</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14323</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14323</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read some of the documents you site and agree with you. However, I do wonder if the old rite was ever truly abrogated practically speaking. My understanding is that as soon as the new rite was promulgated, there were permissions granted for the continued use of the old rite (wasn&#039;t the first that British indult Agatha Christi signed?), and that this permission has only broadened over the years.

So it really does look like, according to the texts, that the old Mass was not to remain in use, but that doesn&#039;t seem to be what the actions from 1970 onward have indicated.

As for the Second Vatican Council not abrogating the old Mass because it had delegated that task to another group - I think we always need to look at what that group did in relation to what Vatican II specifically wanted and be honest about how faithful it was or was not to the aims of the council. The Council, from what I can tell, certainly wanted to reform the Mass then *currently in use*, rather than to displace it with something very different (even going so far as to caution against drastic changes). While there was certainly the authority after the council to create a &quot;new&quot; missal, it&#039;s difficult to square that with what the council seemed to want when looking at the documents approved by the bishops (which always seemed surprisingly conservative to me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read some of the documents you site and agree with you. However, I do wonder if the old rite was ever truly abrogated practically speaking. My understanding is that as soon as the new rite was promulgated, there were permissions granted for the continued use of the old rite (wasn&#8217;t the first that British indult Agatha Christi signed?), and that this permission has only broadened over the years.</p>
<p>So it really does look like, according to the texts, that the old Mass was not to remain in use, but that doesn&#8217;t seem to be what the actions from 1970 onward have indicated.</p>
<p>As for the Second Vatican Council not abrogating the old Mass because it had delegated that task to another group &#8211; I think we always need to look at what that group did in relation to what Vatican II specifically wanted and be honest about how faithful it was or was not to the aims of the council. The Council, from what I can tell, certainly wanted to reform the Mass then *currently in use*, rather than to displace it with something very different (even going so far as to caution against drastic changes). While there was certainly the authority after the council to create a &#8220;new&#8221; missal, it&#8217;s difficult to square that with what the council seemed to want when looking at the documents approved by the bishops (which always seemed surprisingly conservative to me).</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Ruff, OSB</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/03/02/the-genius-of-the-roman-rite-by-keith-pecklers-sj/comment-page-1/#comment-14320</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Ruff, OSB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1196#comment-14320</guid>
		<description>Many scholars have questioned the claim that the pre-Vatican II rite was never abrogated, because there are statements of Pope Paul VI which clearly state that it is not to remain in use. Of course the Second Vatican Council didn&#039;t do this - like the Council of Trent, it left the reform up to a commission which did its work after the Council. But the work which this commission did, and which Paul VI approved, was done because Vatican II called for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many scholars have questioned the claim that the pre-Vatican II rite was never abrogated, because there are statements of Pope Paul VI which clearly state that it is not to remain in use. Of course the Second Vatican Council didn&#8217;t do this &#8211; like the Council of Trent, it left the reform up to a commission which did its work after the Council. But the work which this commission did, and which Paul VI approved, was done because Vatican II called for it.</p>
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