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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Let&#8217;s Just Wait&#8221; at NCReporter</title>
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	<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/</link>
	<description>Worship, Wit &#38; Wisdom</description>
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		<title>By: Max Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1908</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1908</guid>
		<description>So, to avoid &quot;risking validity&quot; do you want a new De Defectibus for the forthcoming missal translation and perhaps a  list of how many mortal sins a priest can commit by omission or commission in the celebration, I mean, saying of Mass?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, to avoid &#8220;risking validity&#8221; do you want a new De Defectibus for the forthcoming missal translation and perhaps a  list of how many mortal sins a priest can commit by omission or commission in the celebration, I mean, saying of Mass?</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Liam Saur</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1869</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Liam Saur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 21:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1869</guid>
		<description>The other issue is simply the very common cognitive error of confirmation bias. That is, people who are anxious about the change will scour for data points validating that anxiety, and will connect nearby but not necessarily causally related dots in ways to affirm that. The NY Times, TIME, and Newsweek will report in earnest. 

Meanwhile, the likes of Fr Z will pump polls to demonstrate the rapturous reception of the new translation. The Washington Times, EWTN and First Things will report in earnest.

No translation change goes off without a hitch (I remember well journeys in the Lands of Inclusive Usages), but after a few years, people get used to it. It&#039;s in the nature of things. 

My main concern is that sharpening the axes of resentment under the guise of pastoral solicitude involves an insidious kind of enslavement, not liberating at all. Hence why I pour cold water on the sharpening stones all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other issue is simply the very common cognitive error of confirmation bias. That is, people who are anxious about the change will scour for data points validating that anxiety, and will connect nearby but not necessarily causally related dots in ways to affirm that. The NY Times, TIME, and Newsweek will report in earnest. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, the likes of Fr Z will pump polls to demonstrate the rapturous reception of the new translation. The Washington Times, EWTN and First Things will report in earnest.</p>
<p>No translation change goes off without a hitch (I remember well journeys in the Lands of Inclusive Usages), but after a few years, people get used to it. It&#8217;s in the nature of things. </p>
<p>My main concern is that sharpening the axes of resentment under the guise of pastoral solicitude involves an insidious kind of enslavement, not liberating at all. Hence why I pour cold water on the sharpening stones all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Ioannes Andreades</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1865</link>
		<dc:creator>Ioannes Andreades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1865</guid>
		<description>People do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Pinyan</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1864</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Pinyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1864</guid>
		<description>This is a genuine, and not rhetorical, question: if priests can (for what they consider &quot;pastoral&quot; reasons or not) alter the liturgical texts prescribed for them to pray at Mass, why shouldn&#039;t I be allowed to do the same for the responses I make?

Why shouldn&#039;t I be allowed to modify the words of the Creed, for example, or use my own private translation of the responses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a genuine, and not rhetorical, question: if priests can (for what they consider &#8220;pastoral&#8221; reasons or not) alter the liturgical texts prescribed for them to pray at Mass, why shouldn&#8217;t I be allowed to do the same for the responses I make?</p>
<p>Why shouldn&#8217;t I be allowed to modify the words of the Creed, for example, or use my own private translation of the responses?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Pinyan</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1862</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Pinyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1862</guid>
		<description>&quot;you know when it’s somebody you’ve trusted and who is working with you&quot;

How many of the priests who&#039;ve signed the petition are the ones who regularly fiddle with the liturgy (for &quot;pastoral&quot; reasons) and resist implementing the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, etc.?  Is that trustworthiness?  Is that working-well?

How many priests who have signed the petition think that the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was a &quot;compromise document&quot; that we must go beyond? Or that guidebooks like &quot;Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite&quot; are silly?

South Africa&#039;s accidental (?) implementation of the new translation was a terrible mistake.  Changing things without preparing the people is terribly unpastoral. (I&#039;m perplexed that the Holy See permits them to continue using the new and INCOMPLETE translation!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you know when it’s somebody you’ve trusted and who is working with you&#8221;</p>
<p>How many of the priests who&#8217;ve signed the petition are the ones who regularly fiddle with the liturgy (for &#8220;pastoral&#8221; reasons) and resist implementing the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, etc.?  Is that trustworthiness?  Is that working-well?</p>
<p>How many priests who have signed the petition think that the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was a &#8220;compromise document&#8221; that we must go beyond? Or that guidebooks like &#8220;Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite&#8221; are silly?</p>
<p>South Africa&#8217;s accidental (?) implementation of the new translation was a terrible mistake.  Changing things without preparing the people is terribly unpastoral. (I&#8217;m perplexed that the Holy See permits them to continue using the new and INCOMPLETE translation!)</p>
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		<title>By: Rita Ferrone</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1861</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita Ferrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1861</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey, hi. The relevant ratio is to be found in the number of people who protest as compared to the number of people who know what is going on. I know we can&#039;t have that latter number, but again I look at the experience in South Africa and when it broke upon the awareness of many, the reaction was huge and extremely negative.

You are completely right. This is nowhere near a &quot;large number of Catholics&quot; in absolute terms. But the Church isn&#039;t a democracy so that doesn&#039;t matter anyway. The question is, are they right? And I do think the collective &quot;weight&quot; of the signatories should make the bishops look at this matter again. It&#039;s the same in the parish. You know when somebody complains who is just cranky, and you know when it&#039;s somebody you&#039;ve trusted and who is working with you--it&#039;s the latter that you listen to, and sometimes you do moderate your plans. The church is not a democracy, but neither is it a dictatorship. Thanks for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey, hi. The relevant ratio is to be found in the number of people who protest as compared to the number of people who know what is going on. I know we can&#8217;t have that latter number, but again I look at the experience in South Africa and when it broke upon the awareness of many, the reaction was huge and extremely negative.</p>
<p>You are completely right. This is nowhere near a &#8220;large number of Catholics&#8221; in absolute terms. But the Church isn&#8217;t a democracy so that doesn&#8217;t matter anyway. The question is, are they right? And I do think the collective &#8220;weight&#8221; of the signatories should make the bishops look at this matter again. It&#8217;s the same in the parish. You know when somebody complains who is just cranky, and you know when it&#8217;s somebody you&#8217;ve trusted and who is working with you&#8211;it&#8217;s the latter that you listen to, and sometimes you do moderate your plans. The church is not a democracy, but neither is it a dictatorship. Thanks for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1857</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1857</guid>
		<description>Rita;

I&#039;m not &quot;asserting&quot; that 17,500 signatures is a trifling number. It simply is, statistically speaking.

17500 /65000000 = .00269 or roughly 1/3000th of the Catholic population. Even if the number of estimated Catholics is grossly overestimated, say by 3x, this would still only represent 1/1000th, or the rough equivalent of a half dozen parishioners in a very large suburban parish of 6000 regular attendees. Even if these were very knowledgeable and prominent parishioners, would they, or even more so, SHOULD they have the ability to dictate parish policy? 

I find the fact that so many are priests and theologians to be more troubling than indicative of substance. Along with the commenter above, I have to wonder if these individuals will put their whole being into proper implementation when the time comes. If not, why should their views now have any force?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rita;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not &#8220;asserting&#8221; that 17,500 signatures is a trifling number. It simply is, statistically speaking.</p>
<p>17500 /65000000 = .00269 or roughly 1/3000th of the Catholic population. Even if the number of estimated Catholics is grossly overestimated, say by 3x, this would still only represent 1/1000th, or the rough equivalent of a half dozen parishioners in a very large suburban parish of 6000 regular attendees. Even if these were very knowledgeable and prominent parishioners, would they, or even more so, SHOULD they have the ability to dictate parish policy? </p>
<p>I find the fact that so many are priests and theologians to be more troubling than indicative of substance. Along with the commenter above, I have to wonder if these individuals will put their whole being into proper implementation when the time comes. If not, why should their views now have any force?</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Allan McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1847</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1847</guid>
		<description>I wonder how many prominent people complained about the 1970 translation of the Mass before we got it and after? Did it do a bit of good? Yes, some 40 years later. Now we have a new translation, like it or not, won&#039;t be changed for another 45 to 50 years, maybe not before the Second Coming. So, like the humble people of 1970 who did accept that translation, we will have to be humble and accept this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how many prominent people complained about the 1970 translation of the Mass before we got it and after? Did it do a bit of good? Yes, some 40 years later. Now we have a new translation, like it or not, won&#8217;t be changed for another 45 to 50 years, maybe not before the Second Coming. So, like the humble people of 1970 who did accept that translation, we will have to be humble and accept this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Pinyan</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1843</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Pinyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 03:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1843</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t consider this new translation a disaster. It&#039;s a change, yes. It&#039;s going to shake things up, yes; it&#039;s not perfect. It&#039;s an opportunity to re-examine our conceptions about the liturgy. It&#039;s a reason to re-invigorate liturgical catechesis. That&#039;s what I&#039;ve been doing, or trying to do. I just don&#039;t have the same credentials as, say, Msgr. Bruce Harbert or Fr. Paul Turner.

It&#039;s very easy to get 20,000 people to sign a petition about &quot;waiting&quot; on this new translation, because - no offense - it&#039;s much easier to be ignorant about something than to be educated about it: education takes time and effort.

People need the new translation explained to them, pastorally and mystagogically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t consider this new translation a disaster. It&#8217;s a change, yes. It&#8217;s going to shake things up, yes; it&#8217;s not perfect. It&#8217;s an opportunity to re-examine our conceptions about the liturgy. It&#8217;s a reason to re-invigorate liturgical catechesis. That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been doing, or trying to do. I just don&#8217;t have the same credentials as, say, Msgr. Bruce Harbert or Fr. Paul Turner.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s very easy to get 20,000 people to sign a petition about &#8220;waiting&#8221; on this new translation, because &#8211; no offense &#8211; it&#8217;s much easier to be ignorant about something than to be educated about it: education takes time and effort.</p>
<p>People need the new translation explained to them, pastorally and mystagogically.</p>
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		<title>By: RP Burke</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/25/lets-just-wait-at-ncreporter/comment-page-1/#comment-1841</link>
		<dc:creator>RP Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=1128#comment-1841</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a lot more than &quot;clunky words&quot;: it&#039;s an entire approach to creating a new &quot;sacral language&quot; so clunky that it reminds me of Esperanto, a manufactured artificial language, than it does idiomatic English. 

The Book of Common Prayer was English educated idiom when it first came out. This is most certainly not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a lot more than &#8220;clunky words&#8221;: it&#8217;s an entire approach to creating a new &#8220;sacral language&#8221; so clunky that it reminds me of Esperanto, a manufactured artificial language, than it does idiomatic English. </p>
<p>The Book of Common Prayer was English educated idiom when it first came out. This is most certainly not.</p>
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