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	<title>Comments on: Holy Resistance   by Paulus</title>
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	<description>Worship, Wit &#38; Wisdom</description>
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		<title>By: Tony Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>Todd Flowerday said:

&quot;Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.&quot;

Todd, all I can go by is my own experience from the time I knelt before the altar rail and received the Body of Christ on my tongue from the hands of Christ Himself, in the accidents of the priest, and witnessing the &quot;one handed grab&quot; of the host by someone with a child in their arms or the &quot;walk and dunk&quot; of someone self intincting.  This indicates to me a serious loss of reverence for our Lord present real and in the flesh.

We are physical creatures and we are affected by our posture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd Flowerday said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.&#8221;</p>
<p>Todd, all I can go by is my own experience from the time I knelt before the altar rail and received the Body of Christ on my tongue from the hands of Christ Himself, in the accidents of the priest, and witnessing the &#8220;one handed grab&#8221; of the host by someone with a child in their arms or the &#8220;walk and dunk&#8221; of someone self intincting.  This indicates to me a serious loss of reverence for our Lord present real and in the flesh.</p>
<p>We are physical creatures and we are affected by our posture.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m amused at how &quot;conservative&quot; progressives have become now that we&#039;re moving forward with the reform of the reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m amused at how &#8220;conservative&#8221; progressives have become now that we&#8217;re moving forward with the reform of the reform.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>&quot;Editor’s note: The following essay does not necessarily reflect the views of Pray Tell or its sponsors. It is posted because we think that it will be important, for the successful implementation of the new missal, to take account of the feelings of all members of the church.&quot;

Where was this particular sensitivity when Vatican II and the Novus Ordo was implemented?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Editor’s note: The following essay does not necessarily reflect the views of Pray Tell or its sponsors. It is posted because we think that it will be important, for the successful implementation of the new missal, to take account of the feelings of all members of the church.&#8221;</p>
<p>Where was this particular sensitivity when Vatican II and the Novus Ordo was implemented?</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Allan McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1288</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1288</guid>
		<description>Dear Fr. Anthony,
In 1999, I wrote an article for our Diocesan Newspaper that I have since placed on my personal blog. In it I quoted Archbishop Rembert Weakland and his concern about the direction some progressives were taking the Mass and that this direction was &quot;diminishing&quot; faith in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. This all appeared in a 1999 article in America Magazine and it juxtaposed Weakland&#039;s concerns with those of then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I paste a short paragraph I wrote from that article on what Archbishop Weakland wrote in that America article:


At the opposite extreme, to those who want to continue with the direction of the current reform and go much further, Archbishop Weakland challenges the theology that has caused our Liturgy to drift “into a more horizontal and purely human activity.” He then asks the most startling question of this group: “Has the reform at times led to a diminution of respect for and belief in the real presence in the Eucharist?” He goes on to ask this disturbing question: “In seeking to make the liturgical symbols more true and clear, has the renewal made the symbol more important than what is symbolized?” He notes the use of “real bread” where “ministers” become sloppy about the crumbs and thus diminish belief in the real presence. He asks, “Has the kiss of peace ceased to be a symbolic gesture of reconciliation with one’s neighbor and become a moment for greeting everyone in the church—to the detriment of the symbol and breaking the liturgical moment of preparation for Holy Communion? In the desire to emphasize the nature of the community, has one introduced rites of dubious origin, e.g., holding hands?” 

I don&#039;t recall which edition of the 1999 America Magazine this article appeared, but I guess you could Google it. 
My full article from 1999 can be found on my blog site at the following link:

http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2009/11/from-1999-am-i-prophet.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Fr. Anthony,<br />
In 1999, I wrote an article for our Diocesan Newspaper that I have since placed on my personal blog. In it I quoted Archbishop Rembert Weakland and his concern about the direction some progressives were taking the Mass and that this direction was &#8220;diminishing&#8221; faith in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. This all appeared in a 1999 article in America Magazine and it juxtaposed Weakland&#8217;s concerns with those of then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I paste a short paragraph I wrote from that article on what Archbishop Weakland wrote in that America article:</p>
<p>At the opposite extreme, to those who want to continue with the direction of the current reform and go much further, Archbishop Weakland challenges the theology that has caused our Liturgy to drift “into a more horizontal and purely human activity.” He then asks the most startling question of this group: “Has the reform at times led to a diminution of respect for and belief in the real presence in the Eucharist?” He goes on to ask this disturbing question: “In seeking to make the liturgical symbols more true and clear, has the renewal made the symbol more important than what is symbolized?” He notes the use of “real bread” where “ministers” become sloppy about the crumbs and thus diminish belief in the real presence. He asks, “Has the kiss of peace ceased to be a symbolic gesture of reconciliation with one’s neighbor and become a moment for greeting everyone in the church—to the detriment of the symbol and breaking the liturgical moment of preparation for Holy Communion? In the desire to emphasize the nature of the community, has one introduced rites of dubious origin, e.g., holding hands?” </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t recall which edition of the 1999 America Magazine this article appeared, but I guess you could Google it.<br />
My full article from 1999 can be found on my blog site at the following link:</p>
<p><a href="http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2009/11/from-1999-am-i-prophet.html" rel="nofollow">http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2009/11/from-1999-am-i-prophet.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rita Ferrone</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1287</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita Ferrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1287</guid>
		<description>Dear Fr. Allan,

I understand what you are saying. Let me make clear that I am not counseling disobedience. But I return to Fr. Paulus’s remark in the original post, which I believe has merit: “Authority is not supposed to be a brick wall.” The outcry against the new translation is not coming from a handful of malcontents, but from some very committed and thoughtful and intelligent people. It is part of the process that needs to take place as the Church listens for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Over and over again, we hear people say of the new translation “This is inevitable, this is inevitable, this is inevitable.” Often this is said along with an agreement that it is not good in itself. But if it’s not good, why is it inevitable? We are  treating the work of a Roman congregation as though it were an act of nature, a storm, a tidal wave; it’s not. Proper respect for authority can never demand dishonesty, because such an outcome violates the conscience. 

Let me also say something inspired by Pope John Paul II’s post-synodal exhortation “On Reconciliation and Penance in the Mission of the Church Today.” If many consciences are violated, the cumulative effect becomes a situation of social sin. He cautions us not to be among those who “take refuge in the supposed impossibility of changing the world” or “those who side-step the effort and sacrifice required” (no. 16). This is what I hear when I read Fr. Paulus’s call for “holy resistance” while others seem to read there nothing but willful disobedience.

Having said this, let me also say that I appreciate what you are saying about having humility, accepting imperfect situations, and bearing with one another in faith and charity.

Now, I think I have said QUITE enough! Thanks for a good discussion, everybody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Fr. Allan,</p>
<p>I understand what you are saying. Let me make clear that I am not counseling disobedience. But I return to Fr. Paulus’s remark in the original post, which I believe has merit: “Authority is not supposed to be a brick wall.” The outcry against the new translation is not coming from a handful of malcontents, but from some very committed and thoughtful and intelligent people. It is part of the process that needs to take place as the Church listens for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. </p>
<p>Over and over again, we hear people say of the new translation “This is inevitable, this is inevitable, this is inevitable.” Often this is said along with an agreement that it is not good in itself. But if it’s not good, why is it inevitable? We are  treating the work of a Roman congregation as though it were an act of nature, a storm, a tidal wave; it’s not. Proper respect for authority can never demand dishonesty, because such an outcome violates the conscience. </p>
<p>Let me also say something inspired by Pope John Paul II’s post-synodal exhortation “On Reconciliation and Penance in the Mission of the Church Today.” If many consciences are violated, the cumulative effect becomes a situation of social sin. He cautions us not to be among those who “take refuge in the supposed impossibility of changing the world” or “those who side-step the effort and sacrifice required” (no. 16). This is what I hear when I read Fr. Paulus’s call for “holy resistance” while others seem to read there nothing but willful disobedience.</p>
<p>Having said this, let me also say that I appreciate what you are saying about having humility, accepting imperfect situations, and bearing with one another in faith and charity.</p>
<p>Now, I think I have said QUITE enough! Thanks for a good discussion, everybody.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Allan McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1286</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1286</guid>
		<description>Karl, you are correct, but we are speaking about Roman Catholics, today, who are alive and kicking, not those who are dead and gone from a by-gone era, nearly 80% of them who do not attend Mass on any regular basis in 2010. Would it be too much to ask the Pew Survey or some other polling group to identify this group, interview them through a survey and discuss their Catholic family history, i.e. pre-Vatican II verses post Vatican II and what transpired in their family in those intervening years, good or bad--but we&#039;re interviewing those who are now alive and no longer practice their faith--they are out there, they are not phantoms. And the focus should not be on moral teachings that they disagree with, but their personal faith in the doctrine of the Mass--an encounter with God, the renewal of the Sacrifice of Christ in an &quot;unbloody&quot; way and the real presence of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Just precisely what does &quot;reverence&quot; in 2010 look like amongst them and amongst practicing Catholics who believe the doctrines concerning Mass--this can and should be studied and shared with the Church. I&#039;d love to see the results!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, you are correct, but we are speaking about Roman Catholics, today, who are alive and kicking, not those who are dead and gone from a by-gone era, nearly 80% of them who do not attend Mass on any regular basis in 2010. Would it be too much to ask the Pew Survey or some other polling group to identify this group, interview them through a survey and discuss their Catholic family history, i.e. pre-Vatican II verses post Vatican II and what transpired in their family in those intervening years, good or bad&#8211;but we&#8217;re interviewing those who are now alive and no longer practice their faith&#8211;they are out there, they are not phantoms. And the focus should not be on moral teachings that they disagree with, but their personal faith in the doctrine of the Mass&#8211;an encounter with God, the renewal of the Sacrifice of Christ in an &#8220;unbloody&#8221; way and the real presence of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Just precisely what does &#8220;reverence&#8221; in 2010 look like amongst them and amongst practicing Catholics who believe the doctrines concerning Mass&#8211;this can and should be studied and shared with the Church. I&#8217;d love to see the results!</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Liam Saur</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1284</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Liam Saur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1284</guid>
		<description>In addition to the &quot;post hoc ergo propter hoc&quot; logical issue, there assumptions and beliefs, for example about what a sense of the sacred looks like and does not look like, and the quality of it before and after, and whether other vairable are or are not being considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the &#8220;post hoc ergo propter hoc&#8221; logical issue, there assumptions and beliefs, for example about what a sense of the sacred looks like and does not look like, and the quality of it before and after, and whether other vairable are or are not being considered.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Flowerday</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1283</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Flowerday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1283</guid>
		<description>Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.

My sense would be to place a modern loss of the sense of the sacred to begin around the post-WWII period in the US, and maybe decades before in Europe. The erosion of respect for authority seemed to really pick up steam as the wars piled up in Europe. People realized their monarchs and aristocracy were sinfully disconnected from the suffering and trauma their alliances and the developing technology of warcraft landed them in one unjust war after another. And where was the Church in all this? It&#039;s a work of the Holy Spirit that Europe wasn&#039;t de-Christianized generations ago.

You&#039;ve missed the advent of utilitarian church architecture by at least a generation.

Declining Mass attendance is a reality, and has many, many causes. One reason why it persists is the lack of an evangelical mindset and pastoral creativity by both clergy and laity. You may be able to point to your parish, and demonstrate your ability to lasso inactive Catholics back to the Mass, and better, having inspired your parishioners to evangelize, too. So where are you sitting in your parish? 40% or better? 

The students and university folks we try to evangelize have a lot more concerns than the fussiness with which we conduct our liturgy. We do it largely the same as we always have: avoiding the worst of the post-conciliar nonsense, but also realizing that old wineskins are woefully inadequate for the challenges of the age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.</p>
<p>My sense would be to place a modern loss of the sense of the sacred to begin around the post-WWII period in the US, and maybe decades before in Europe. The erosion of respect for authority seemed to really pick up steam as the wars piled up in Europe. People realized their monarchs and aristocracy were sinfully disconnected from the suffering and trauma their alliances and the developing technology of warcraft landed them in one unjust war after another. And where was the Church in all this? It&#8217;s a work of the Holy Spirit that Europe wasn&#8217;t de-Christianized generations ago.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve missed the advent of utilitarian church architecture by at least a generation.</p>
<p>Declining Mass attendance is a reality, and has many, many causes. One reason why it persists is the lack of an evangelical mindset and pastoral creativity by both clergy and laity. You may be able to point to your parish, and demonstrate your ability to lasso inactive Catholics back to the Mass, and better, having inspired your parishioners to evangelize, too. So where are you sitting in your parish? 40% or better? </p>
<p>The students and university folks we try to evangelize have a lot more concerns than the fussiness with which we conduct our liturgy. We do it largely the same as we always have: avoiding the worst of the post-conciliar nonsense, but also realizing that old wineskins are woefully inadequate for the challenges of the age.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Ruff, OSB</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1282</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Ruff, OSB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1282</guid>
		<description>Fr. Allan,  I don&#039;t think the discussion between you and Todd involves history or sociology or psychology at root. The issue is logic. Two things happened  - what you call the loss of the sacred, and a decline in Mass attendance. Any causality in any direction is not proven by simultaneity.
awr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Allan,  I don&#8217;t think the discussion between you and Todd involves history or sociology or psychology at root. The issue is logic. Two things happened  &#8211; what you call the loss of the sacred, and a decline in Mass attendance. Any causality in any direction is not proven by simultaneity.<br />
awr</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Allan McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/02/09/holy-resistance-by-paulus/comment-page-1/#comment-1280</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Allan McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.praytellblog.com/?p=821#comment-1280</guid>
		<description>Todd, firstly, I don&#039;t know how old you are or what experiences you have had in the Church or your qualifications as a historian or a sociologist, let alone a psychologist. Then secondly, your misrepresentation of my remarks about the EF and the OF are astounding.
I was speaking of the reverence that the clergy and the laity alike had for the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the type of devotion to our Lord that this entailed. In pre-Vatican II times, it would have been unheard of for any Catholic of good faith to criticize the Mass or in any way be in favor of a reduced piety and reverence toward our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Yes, this was tied into the spirituality of the EF Mass, low, high solemn high, well done or poorly done. And in the case of a poorly done Mass, ex-opere, operato kicked in and at least you were able to be at the renewal of the sacrifice and receive our Lord in Holy Communion. Language played a part, but also spirituality, belief (faith) and profound respect for the Church and her liturgy in other words, reverence and a profound &quot;sense of the sacred!&quot;
Now, somewhere between 1968 and 1979, a loss of the sense of the sacred did occur in the lives of many priests, religious, and laity and the manner in which the Mass was actually celebrated and churches renovated. This can be proven both from the perspective of sociology, psychology and history. In fact there were books and article written about the Liturgy at this time and the loss of the sense of the sacred that was occurring from in and outside of the Church as you have highlighted with the other details you mention--it was part of a much bigger phenomenon to say the least and you don&#039;t have to be a rocket scientist to see and read about that. 

That a significant number of Catholics now absent themselves from Sunday Mass, almost 80% in some places must be examined. The role of the loss of the sense of the sacred as it pertains to their desire to be at Mass, which is intimately tied to the role of faith in one&#039;s life, which is a gift from God, is not too difficult to ascertain.

I am not a practicing sociologist, but I am a priest and I have heard testimonies of many who have experienced poor celebrations of the OF Mass, (not here in Macon, by the way) and I would lose my faith if I had to endure these celebrations on a regular basis, save for ex-opere, operato, my personal faith, which is a gift, and the sense of the sacred that I have that leads me to a profound reverence for all things holy, especially our Lord&#039;s sacrifice and Real Presence at Mass validly celebrated either EF or OF.

And by the way, my BA was in sociology!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, firstly, I don&#8217;t know how old you are or what experiences you have had in the Church or your qualifications as a historian or a sociologist, let alone a psychologist. Then secondly, your misrepresentation of my remarks about the EF and the OF are astounding.<br />
I was speaking of the reverence that the clergy and the laity alike had for the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the type of devotion to our Lord that this entailed. In pre-Vatican II times, it would have been unheard of for any Catholic of good faith to criticize the Mass or in any way be in favor of a reduced piety and reverence toward our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Yes, this was tied into the spirituality of the EF Mass, low, high solemn high, well done or poorly done. And in the case of a poorly done Mass, ex-opere, operato kicked in and at least you were able to be at the renewal of the sacrifice and receive our Lord in Holy Communion. Language played a part, but also spirituality, belief (faith) and profound respect for the Church and her liturgy in other words, reverence and a profound &#8220;sense of the sacred!&#8221;<br />
Now, somewhere between 1968 and 1979, a loss of the sense of the sacred did occur in the lives of many priests, religious, and laity and the manner in which the Mass was actually celebrated and churches renovated. This can be proven both from the perspective of sociology, psychology and history. In fact there were books and article written about the Liturgy at this time and the loss of the sense of the sacred that was occurring from in and outside of the Church as you have highlighted with the other details you mention&#8211;it was part of a much bigger phenomenon to say the least and you don&#8217;t have to be a rocket scientist to see and read about that. </p>
<p>That a significant number of Catholics now absent themselves from Sunday Mass, almost 80% in some places must be examined. The role of the loss of the sense of the sacred as it pertains to their desire to be at Mass, which is intimately tied to the role of faith in one&#8217;s life, which is a gift from God, is not too difficult to ascertain.</p>
<p>I am not a practicing sociologist, but I am a priest and I have heard testimonies of many who have experienced poor celebrations of the OF Mass, (not here in Macon, by the way) and I would lose my faith if I had to endure these celebrations on a regular basis, save for ex-opere, operato, my personal faith, which is a gift, and the sense of the sacred that I have that leads me to a profound reverence for all things holy, especially our Lord&#8217;s sacrifice and Real Presence at Mass validly celebrated either EF or OF.</p>
<p>And by the way, my BA was in sociology!</p>
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