Editor’s note: The following essay does not necessarily reflect the views of Pray Tell or its sponsors. It is posted because we think that it will be important, for the successful implementation of the new missal, to take account of the feelings of all members of the church.
I was really interested to read here a couple days ago about Clare Johnson’s talk in Australia, in which she dealt with the psychological issues raised by the new translations. [Could we please have the text in full?] If—and for me it’s still if—we have to introduce the new translation in its current form, we will certainly need all that psychologists can give us on the dysfunctions and pathologies at work when important change is just forced upon us.
But I fear that something more radical is required from our psychologists. Clare reads like a good and sensible person who, like many pastoral bishops, has been browbeaten into letting these regressive new texts be imposed. I deplore the resignation, the weary recognition of the inevitable, in Clare’s saying, “the transition to the MR3 is going to happen, … and as the ones who are going to have to implement and explain the MR3 … we need to begin now to prepare ourselves adequately ….” For me, that still presupposes too much. I know now that only something like a miracle will enable me to collude in the imposition of these texts. They do violence to our language, which has a beauty of its own quite unlike that of Latin (though is the missal good Latin anyway?). They do violence to at least my sense of what holiness is, what Church is. We can’t just let this catastrophe happen.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever received when training for the priesthood was, “don’t preach what you don’t believe.” When these new translations are finally imposed, presumably on the First Sunday of Advent 2011, the only sermon I will be able honestly to preach will begin: “The lunatics are now running the asylum; the animals have taken over the zoo.” With the addition of “trust the Lord anyway”, this will be quite a good sermon for that particular Sunday. But there won’t be any other sermons possible. And by Christmas, it will have become boring.
Of course I won’t actually preach that sermon, out of reverence—reverence for God’s people at prayer. If the new texts are finally imposed, it will become impossible for me to continue functioning publicly as a priest in English. Presiding at Mass will require too much suppression of anger, of frustration, of passionately held conviction. I stand no chance of being able to preside at the eucharist responsibly and reverently, no chance of being able to pray publicly in a way that helps and incorporates others rather than hinders them. I see no alternative but to desist from a ministry I love, and which I have no desire on any other grounds to abandon.
I have noted that I live within walking distance of Sunday masses in modern foreign languages that I happen to speak; through the week I have a sensible Anglican church with daily Eucharist near me. But it will be a canonical hinterland. Priests outside parish ministry who couldn’t cope with the changes in the 1960s could nevertheless continue “saying their Mass”; then they got on with their lives. Some of them were distinguished and holy; some I have known and loved. I’m wondering whether I—once a young Turk in the liturgical vanguard—can emulate them and move into the eucharistic margins. Is it possible for me to cross a boundary and start “saying Mass” on my own? But I’ve never done that in many years of priesthood. Both because of the formation I received and as a matter of personal conviction, I believe that such a practice is itself a notable “liturgical abuse,”—a good friend recently pointed out how the Vatican has taken to using this phrase just when our systemic failures regarding child abuse have come to light— confusing the corporate prayer of the Church with the priest’s personal piety. It’s far from clear what to do: neither going Anglican, nor going it alone, nor just giving up are attractive options. It feels like I’m being spiritually strangled.
MR3 and its new translation will throw daily into our faces a repudiation by Roman authority of how the English-speaking churches have received Vatican II (critics, please note the precision of my language). The conflicts—about doctrine, liberation, sexual morality, social justice and the rest—do not need to be rehearsed here. But so far they have been manageable, because the liturgy has remained substantially a reformed space, a warm and human space, a place of the Father and Jesus making their home with those who love them. It has enabled those of us who are right-thinking, generous and liberal as God is right-thinking, generous and liberal, to cope in faith with the successive erosions of the renewal that once captivated us. But if—let’s hope it’s if—the forces of reaction come to mold the language of our worship, it will be as though the Council, and the liberation it brought to a generation of Catholics damaged by the inhumanities of old-style Catholicism, has been finally reversed.
Exceptionally, this contribution is appearing anonymously. Because I am a priest with a modest public profile, and have commitments of loyalty to others, I cannot say on the public record what I think about many issues. And this need for anonymity indicates an important part of the problem. If you love truth and the church enough to bother criticizing authority when it behaves abusively, you are smeared as a dissenter, as a “disloyal Catholic,” as “unfaithful.” Moreover you run up against important considerations about “avoiding scandal,” because there are good reasons why Catholic ministers should not in normal circumstances criticize their superiors in public. But these dynamics of loyalty have a terrible shadow side; they prevent reality from being seen for what it is. We come to confuse orthodoxy with conformity, fidelity with compliance, obedience with lack of imagination.
Healthy Catholicism requires a respect for authority; but it also requires an authority which does not behave like a brick wall. I contributed to the new translation of MR3 indirectly when my ordinary was consulted, confidentially of course (what were they trying to hide with this ‘not in front of the children’ policy?), regarding a draft version. Helped by a number of his priests, he sent in a detailed, constructive, not entirely negative set of reactions. The episcopal office in question—or so I am told—could not be bothered even to acknowledge the letter. The message was clear: Rome was bullying this through regardless, and nothing coming from the countries concerned was going to make any difference. No one was interested in listening.
I am sure that Clare Johnson is right to highlight the psychological issues raised by the way the new texts are simply being imposed on us. Admittedly there was consultation of a sort among the bishops about the new texts—though I remain to be convinced that any sane and pastoral bishop, when not befuddled by deference, thinks these changes are for the better. There was no consultation about the key document informing them, Liturgiam allegedly authenticam. That was where the trouble started. The truth is that the demonic forces behind the impending changes avoid the light that would come with real consultation, with actually listening to people and reality, just as their agenda is to prevent human reality find its proper expression, in its own language, within the Church’s liturgy. I see little point in trying now to introduce some element of “involving people in how the changes happen.” If Clare is right that we are really past a point of no return—and again, I am hoping against hope that she is not—then we need something more than strategies of a belated and spurious co-ownership. We need to cultivate holy resistance.
#1 by Rita Ferrone on February 9, 2010 - 12:24 pm
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Wow. This is a courageous post, even though anonymous. I have wondered myself, “What am I going to do?” when this dreadful translation is imposed, which is exactly what is happening. And I don’t have the added burden of being asked to stand up before a parish community and lie to them about how wonderful and necessary all this bad English is. Paulus, you will undoubtedly be dumped on by some people at this blog, many of whom are thrilled with all this show of Roman intransigence when it’s in service to something they like, and would prefer to celebrate in Latin anyway, but I think you speak for many more who do not comment. I am sorry that a disclaimer had to be issued and that this essay was framed as “listening to people’s feelings” when there is so much thought and a definite set of ideas embodied in what you have written.
#2 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 12:40 pm
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I don’t think it’s courageous in the least (I grant we probably have different understandings of what courage entails), and I am not one of those who is entirely thrilled with MR3 (I think the changes to the people’s parts are better than what we have; I have misgivings about the fetishization of Latin syntax, but my main complaint is that neither the translation principles of 1969 or 2001 prioritized beauty and musicality, yet I digress), but then I don’t think the current translation is wonderful, either.
Having seen too much of “holy resistance” by self-anointed prophets in action, my general attitude is to be deeply wary of clerical and ministerial prophets with marks of overactive egoism, as they consider hijacking communities for their self-expression. As the T-shirts say “Only *you* can prevent narcissism.” I’ve seen them steam-roller (and worse) in the name of holy resistance those in their communities who question or disagree with them. I have no respect for that, and it would even be beneath validation.
Rather than “holy resistance”, solidarity is a more opportune idea. The people don’t get to choose their liturgy (and, unless they are tenured academics, owners of their own businesses, or industry titans, they generally work in jobs that not only exclude meaningful consultation but also include the near certainty of termination for insubordination if they so much as look cross-eyed at their bosses – thus, people in the pews can deeply resent a cleric who demonstrates how much more freedom he has than they have); a priest in solidarity with that experience will not try to exert a freedom they lack. But solidarity without agitprop lacks melodrama, and feels less intense, less authentic; but what is wrong is beliefs and assumptions about what is authentic, et cet.
#3 by Bill Dilworth on February 9, 2010 - 1:36 pm
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I have to admit that an anonymous courageousness seems a little antiintuitive.
#4 by Todd Flowerday on February 9, 2010 - 1:46 pm
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If he were courageous, he’d go to the NLM or some similar site and sign his real name and e-mail. I think we all realize that within hours, people from the other side of the world would be calling for his scalp, if not his job. Some connections with ACORN or PP or a high school girlfriend would be brought out.
Let’s acknowledge we don’t live in a Church that is itself courageous enough to permit reasonable, seasoned input contrary to the Plan.
Having faced the wrath of gossipmongers, liars, frauds, and other church personalities, I can’t fault someone for wanting to remain anonymous.
So is this guy courageous? Perhaps not. But the examples of courage are few and far between in Roman Catholicism these days.
#5 by Bill Dilworth on February 9, 2010 - 2:16 pm
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Todd, you’re probably right. But it does call the program of “holy resistance” into question if it’s just not possible to make a public stand in the first place, it seems to me.
#6 by Fr. Christopher Costigan on February 9, 2010 - 12:25 pm
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I think a few general points regarding the upcoming Missal need to be remembered.
1. It is coming. No amount of complaining or petition-signing is going to do anything,
2. We need to not repeat the mistakes of the past by going the route of no catechesis and individual experimentation by priests and liturgy committees–the Mass is the Mass of the Church, not Fr. X and Parish Y. (so when it is promulgated, it is to be used, whether father feels like it or not.)
3. No one is losing their faith because they have to say “incarnate.” If they do, how deep was the faith to begin with? And if so, what was deficient in our catechesis the last 20 years?
4. Most negative opinion about the translation is not coming from the people in the pews. It is coming from “professionals.” If there are parishes with sharp negative reaction, I will bet that is the result of the priest or parish staff’s negative attitude.
5. The people are smarter than you thing. We do not need to use small dumbed-down language so the “simple people” can understand. Let’s raise the bar!
6. Repeat of number 1: It is happening! Let us not “turn back the clocks” to 1970 but move into 2011.
#7 by Cody C. Unterseher on February 9, 2010 - 1:54 pm
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I don’t think it’s a matter of losing faith over “incarnate,” or “consubstantial,” or “and with your spirit.”
I think it’s a matter of losing faith in an institution that should be both serving the liturgy and serving its people. I’ve spent a lot of time comparing the Latin text of the Eucharistic Prayers in the old and new translations with the Latin — and in the case of Eucharistic Prayer I, also with unofficial translations in academic works and from older hand-missals (including some Anglican ones). I can honestly say that I do not believe the new translation to be any more or less accurate than the current one; further, it is much less accurate than some of the older translations in the hand missals, which represent both better formal equivalence and better English usage.
Bluntly put in today’s “txt” and web lingo: translation FAIL.
Given the hype over Liturgiam Authenticam, the coup d’etat hijacking of ICEL, and the “promises” that have come along with all that — as well as the provision in LA for a translation that is beautiful and intelligible as well as formally equivalent — in the face of such failure, I can’t help but sympathize with those who find their faith in the institution failing.
#8 by Fr. Christopher Costigan on February 9, 2010 - 12:39 pm
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To use an analogy: Here in NY we are supposed to get a foot or more of snow. We could sit here and debate whether snow is good or bad. We could complain. We could blame global warming, the electric plant and car exhaust–or we can gas up the snow blowers, put down the salt, get out the boots and shovels and be ready. Either way it is going to snow.
#9 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 12:42 pm
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Well, yes, in the end, people have choices to reconsider their beliefs and assumptions about liturgical issues. Their feelings may be real, but in the feelings are just information: they don’t dictate the choice of action in response to them. One can choose to change, or not. It’s each person’s responsibility.
#10 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 10, 2010 - 4:59 am
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It’s not going to snow in the south, better down here, but the kids complain about the lack of snow, no closed schools for snow days!
#11 by Todd Flowerday on February 9, 2010 - 1:40 pm
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Our recognition of Roman incompetence doesn’t have to end with signing (or e-printing) our name on a petition. The worst post-conciliar event, at least for us speakers of English, was not RM3, but the deep-sixing of RM2.
Clearly, professionals will continue to talk about this, just as we’ve all discussed the shortcomings of RM1. In that sense nothing will change. We will still have a translation about which to complain, and nobody’s going to stop us, and people in the pews will adjust.
Let’s also not discredit the laity by insisting that if they complain it will be the progressives’ fault. If South Africa is any indication, there will be a spitstorm of discontent from North America, the UK, and Australia. All the rationalizing about fomenting dissent will appear to be a childish excuse, and I’m content to implement well, and let the bishops squirm.
That said, there is a spiritual value to be found in receiving RM3 and implementing it. In doing so, we will be more faithful to Christ and to the Church than those who see this advent as either a cheerleading event on the way to the TLM, or as an expression of take-charge curialism.
While I find serious flaws in both the translation as well as the Roman Missal itself, I see them both as providing an opportunity. The music will have to be that much better. The priests will need to prepare much more deeply. The poverty of RM3 will make demands that many of our musicians and clergy have not had to deal with, especially those who sleepwalk through the Mass.
And lastly, let’s keep in mind that we sow seeds in a future that is not our own. And if that’s not enough, there was never a better time to memorize and pray the Serenity Prayer.
#12 by Jeffrey Herbert on February 9, 2010 - 1:50 pm
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I’m also a bit mystified as to why this post would be called “courageous”. I write a lot, and there are many who disagree with me, but I still put my name on postings. Even most Pastors throw “anonymous” letters or notes directly into the round file.
The other day I was speaking with the Religious Ed Director at our parish. I mentioned that things were going to get busy soon with having to implement the new translation. His reply was “Are they still doing that… I heard that there were objections to it so they dropped it.” This is the Religious Ed Director?? There is much work to be done regardless of what we think individually about it. As was noted above…this is an inevitability now, and no amount of petition-writing or delaying will make that change. If the laity refuse to take up the task of implementing what is given them, then who will be to blame when it is “imposed”? And if those who oppose the new translation think that this will be the most challenging change coming in the next few years….umhhh….better get those petition clipboards out and ready.
#13 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 2:28 pm
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My questioning of the characterization of this as courageous comes from a more lefty perspective: this is actually an expression of privilege, not oppression. Clerics voluntarily make promises of obedience, and join a hierarchical structure where they are given privileges that laity are not. Paulus’s essay is framed almost exclusively in terms of how MR/RM3 affects his beliefs and spirituality; the people in the pews are an afterthought, and it seems are assumed to be in unanimous alignment with the writer. The writer envisions that he has the authority, or will take the power, to turn the liturgy an arena of self-actualization as a prophet (or self-dramatization in the re-creation in parish life of some resonant historical event of civil disobedience) – in doing so, it will make the liturgy all about *him*. At which point, there will be some laity who will feel sympathetic, but a lot others who will be thinking “it’s not about you or what you want or don’t want” and some of them may get confrontational but most will probably just hit the Ignore button (because Catholics love that button). Just remember that a distant tyrant in Rome is often going to be preferred to a local tyrant in the form of a lone-ranger priest.
I don’t have a problem with the anonymity of the posting, given what Todd correctly refers to in Catholic blogdom, I should hasten to add.
This is an opportunity for solidarity, not self-dramatization. The essay betrays a bounty of self-awareness on an emotional level, but a distinct lack of awareness of the amount of privilege the writer has. The desert, not the oasis, is where most important spiritual growth occurs. If the writer thinks we the people are going to be in the desert, then just be there with us, rather than whining about the desert or imagining yourself to be a Joshua who will lead Israel directly from Egypt to the Promised Land (hint: even Moses could not pull that one off). We’re tough; we can deal.
#14 by Rita Ferrone on February 9, 2010 - 7:03 pm
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We are in a recession. Here in the US, the jobless rate for the lowest income group–the poor, the people for whom Christians are supposed to care the most–was 30.8% during the last quarter of last year. The next lowest group had an unemployment rate of 19.1%.
Dioceses are going into backruptcy because of the sex abuse scandals. There are more lawsuits coming. The church is committing new resources to political fights over marriage; there will be lawsuits to fight there too eventually, if I’m not mistaken.
This new translation means every book for the liturgy, and for the catechesis surrounding it, and for the music accompanying it, has to be replaced. Every school textbook, every hymnal, everything.
Who is going to pay for it?
Not the pope. Not the bishops. The people? “We’re tough; we can deal” sure. But we’ve just finished paying for some of the most horrific bungling we’ve ever seen in our lives, and now this high-ticket item, a poor English re-translation of the Mass, to be followed by the rest of the books (because this is only the beginning), is levied on us. It comes at a time when people can least afford it.
If one wants to think about this in a leftist framework, I don’t think Fr. Paulus’s exercise of privilege is the one to criticize.
#15 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 9:10 pm
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In reply to Rita’s reply, I note that the books won’t be available until next year.,
The translation in 1969 was considered provisional and subject to further long-term translation efforts. Whether it was the RM2 project that got shelved or this current mandate, we bought the cost of having to redo what was done in 1969 when the decision was made to do that fast and not wait for the final version, as it were. So, this stewardship issue was in a sense bought in 1969.
And, in communities I once inhabited where inclusive language desiderata required an overhaul of many liturgical and related books, good stewardship was never an objection.
#16 by Rita Ferrone on February 10, 2010 - 3:26 pm
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Karl Liam,
The arguments you make here seem to me unpersuasive, and I wanted to explain why.
First of all, the 1969 commitment to review and revise the texts produced at that time entails no moral, logical, or practical necessity to implement THIS translation NOW. The conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise. No one “bought” this translation in 1969. Some translation someday, yes. This one, no.
I don’t know how much you are aware of this, but a (much better) English translation was completed and approved by canonical vote in 1998 and subsequently pulled by Rome. Thirteen years of painstaking effort went into making that translation, and it would have cost less to implement because there were fewer alterations to the people’s parts. But no, the project was begun again, from scratch. If you want to argue that the provision for review in 1969 binds the church in conscience to implement a revised and improved translation, you will have to account for the manifest failure of the Roman authorities to do so when the hour was upon them in 1998.
Second, your assumption that in the space of a year the recession will have abated seems overly optimistic. The recovery so far has been a “jobless” recovery. The stats I quoted for the lowest portion of the American economic spectrum are comparable to (actually worse than) the Great Depression. In the world economy, shaky fortunes of other countries continue to have an impact on the American economy, and some are teetering on the edge (witness the effects on the stock market of the crisis in Greece and Spain this past week). It would be nice if in a year all this was behind us, but it’s not prudent to bank on it.
You make no mention of the drain on the church’s purse by ongoing litigation, or the fall into bankruptcy that has afflicted a number of dioceses. We are in far more straightened circumstances today than we were a decade ago.
Third, your comparison of the drive to produce this translation to the advocacy for new books to use gender inclusive language, while interesting, is flawed in two respects. First, this side-steps the question of economic timeliness. The high water mark for the inclusive language movement was the late 1980s. In the 1980s, the percentage of Catholics regularly attending Mass in the United States was hovering around 50%. Since that time it has sunk to 24%. The devastating effects of the sex abuse crisis had not yet hit. There was more money to go around. Staffing was more plentiful. To advocate a wholesale change in a time of relative prosperity is one thing; to do so today is another. Second, if you think the drive for inclusive language was misguided in principle or practice then it hardly justifies another expensive, ideologically-driven project today.
If I’m not mistaken, however, calling attention to disparities of this kind isn’t usually done out of a simple love for fairness (I give people credit for knowing that two wrongs don’t make a right). Rather, it is usually an attempt to see the translation question divide along ideological lines. Such an effort is misleading. I can name you any number of conservatives who are appalled at the new translation right along with progressives.
#17 by F C Bauerschmidt on February 9, 2010 - 2:45 pm
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The coming translation makes me sad at the lost opportunity to have a really fine English translation that could be effectively prayed for decades to come. But I’ve got to say that the post strikes me as a bit of a hysterical overreaction. I don’t doubt that the author is sincerely expressing his feelings, but it is at times like this that someone has to say, “Get a grip. Keep things in perspective.” There have been events in the history of the Church that might rightly be ascribed to demonic forces, but I hardly think that the ham-handed imposition of a crappy translation is one of them. We survived it in 1970 and we’ll survive it in 2011.
#18 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 3:15 pm
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One nifty aspect of Liturgicam Authenticam is that it demonstrated that translation principles can be changed. Someday, we may therefore finally get translation principles that elevate beauty and musicality of text higher that fidelity to either conversational speech of the youngest or least educated on the one hand or Latinate syntax on the other. Darn, I forgot to word that with an ablative absolute….
#19 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 9, 2010 - 2:58 pm
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This post is just as courageous as Martin Luther’s post on the door of the cathedral in his home town and will take many down a road that is far from the one toward Rome–there’s freedom in that and that freedom does not take courage, remaining with Rome does and siding with Rome btw.
#20 by Anthony Ruff, OSB on February 9, 2010 - 6:50 pm
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Fr. Allan,
You write as if everything about Martin Luther is bad and (therefore) leads away from Rome. But the Roman Catholic church believes (and taught at Vatican II) that there was fault on all sides which caused the tragic split, and the Council spoke as positively as it could about Protestants (and btw also about Jews, and Muslims, and people of good will). I think the old neoscholastics could see the virtue of courage even in people with mistaken convictions. It bothers me that you won’t even give Luther that.
awr
#21 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 10, 2010 - 5:09 am
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Dear Fr. Ruff, I agree with you on your point, although Martin Luther did take a good number of people away from Rome, but it helped Rome to look at the corruption of the Church having too much a share in politics, i.e. popes and bishops also having secular power which seem to be more important to them than their religious authority. Then of course there was lack of oversight and supervision of seminaries, who got ordained and rampant sexual immorality within the clergy and in high places. The selling of indulgences, in particular to build St. Peters but also for the benefit of the clergy as well as selling sacraments didn’t help matters. Martin Luther to begin with was like many other Catholic reformers such as St. Francis, St. Catherine, St. Teresa and others, except he and his movement went into schism. It’s the schism and schism talk that I find unappealing amongst Catholics today, either on the right or the left and there is plenty of that kind of talk.
But as far as Protestants, I truly believe that they have helped us in the South, since Catholics are a clear minority, comprising less than 3% of the population in my diocese and we’re less so in Macon, GA. Out of a population of about 100,000, there are about 3000 Catholic families in the three parishes here. The reason they help us is they challenge us. They ask us if we are saved and we have to respond. They do know their Scriptures (although unfortunately even that is waning for them). We do relate to them ecumenically. The majority of the marriages I witness are mixed–Catholic, Protestant. But what is sad now about our Protestant culture is that we are now seeing a good number of people who want to marry Catholics who are not baptized–a once rare phenomenon in the Bible Belt. Because even though the majority religion, Southern Baptists, allow children to ask for Baptism usually around the late pre-teens or early teens, many are no longer being brought up in religious homes, so they are not being baptized. This too is secularism in a sense. The United Methodists here provide a great many social services to the poor and elderly and are clearly a very positive influence within our community in this regard. The Southern Baptists are so congregational that they can’t get together on anything to act in any unified matter about any social issues whatsoever and this is unfortunate because they comprise the majority of Christians here. But each time there is a disagreement with a pastor or some member of the congregation, they separate and form a new congregation. Macon has more churches per capita than any other community in the nation because of this fragmentation. I hate seeing this same fragmentation in our Catholic community built upon some of the same issues of pride that I see in the Southern Baptist Churches. We have an excellent Baptist university here, Mercer University, but it lost its “Southern Baptist” identity as it was expelled by their Convention because of the direction it was taking which is more liberal for Southern Baptist Convention tastes.
#22 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 3:54 pm
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What on Earth is ‘courageous’ about a Catholic priest who publicly plays around with the idea of rejecting the Church because a new liturgy doesn’t ‘fit’ within his particular world view?
Are the Sedevacantists also ‘courageous’?
#23 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 3:59 pm
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Hey, until your comment prompted me to check out the current status of Pius XIII (Lucian Pulvermacher), I didn’t know he died a couple of months ago:
http://www.truecatholic.us/
#24 by Paulus on February 9, 2010 - 4:04 pm
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1. Though I am grateful for Rita’s compliment and sympathy, I make no claim to be courageous, and my courage or lack of it is really not the point. My decision to be anonymous was not lightly taken, either by me or the moderators. It arose on my part not from fear of the consequences for myself were I to be identifiable as the author of this posting–I’m beyond that worry–but from a sense that, given my personal circumstances, others’ reputation and ministry would thereby be undermined. I may legitimately be reckless with my own good standing; I have no right to endanger that of others. For this reason, and this reason alone, I stay anonymous.
2. Karl Liam reads me as wanting to hijack a community for my own self-expression. Maybe my talk of holy resistance at the end lays me open to that charge. I must admit I have very little idea what that can look like in practice–perhaps, as Karl Liam half suggests, life after MR3 will turn out to be a creative desert. But underlying my whole argument was a sense precisely that histrionic pseudo-prophecy is not an option for my public behavior. Because I cannot as a presider deviate substantially from the official texts when occupying a presidential chair, I think at present that I have no alternative in conscience but to desist from public eucharistic ministry once these texts are definitively imposed.
#25 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 4:50 pm
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Thank you for this important clarification. The title of the essay (perhaps not chosen by you but by the site editors, in which case it would be a prime example of editorial titling by juiciness rather than accuracy) and the fact that the idea concludes your essay very much influenced how I thought you intended it to be read.
As someone who has been an editor, I would suggest that any emotional pieces of this sort sit unpublished for a longer time, to ripen properly. Editors should consider that part of their job.
I would suggest, respectfully, that your conscience might allow you other alternatives, such as reconsidering your beliefs and assumptions about the current translation and what using the new translation would necessarily entail (for example, I suggested earlier one might see them as an opportunity for solidarity).
#26 by Rita Ferrone on February 9, 2010 - 6:33 pm
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I find it interesting that so many people commented on my comment, and not on Fr. Paulus’s post!
#27 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 9:01 pm
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Well my first reaction when I read the piece, before there were any comments was “Oh, dear, maybe everyone will just treat this as a venting and not try to validate it as an expression of something greater” and decided I would not comment on it unless someone did so… I’ve seen too much validation of this sort and it’s not as helpful as it’s intended.
#28 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 10, 2010 - 6:50 am
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Your comment was interesting!
But as a member of the clergy I did resent your comment about the “pope and bishops” not having to pay for stuff, but the people would. My dear, I’m a people too! But come now, boiling all down to the fear of spending money seems a bit cheap.
#29 by Rita Ferrone on February 10, 2010 - 3:56 pm
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Fr. Allan, I know you are people too, but will the check be written out of your personal account?? Yes, I’m a skinflint. Have to be; I work for the church!
But, I tell you what. Am willing to learn. The next time you’re in New York, you can buy me a drink to demonstrate free spending. I like single malt scotch!
#30 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 10, 2010 - 4:26 pm
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Thanks I do visit Manhattan about once a year and would like to take you up on that. Can ya’ll also get a mint julep or a Chatham Artillery Punch up there, although my preference is gin and tonic in moderation of course And yes I tithe (I promote Catholic Stewardship in my parish and have to put my money where my mouth is!)
Fr. Richard Seagraves an assistant at St. Patrick’s Cathedral visited a friend of his here in Macon and con-celebrated Mass with us on two Sundays. He is from Macon to begin with. Do you know him?
In case you need the recipe for Chatham Artillery Punch please note:
CHATHAM ARTILLERY PUNCH
* 8 liters white rum
* 4 liters gin
…
#31 by Karl Liam Saur on February 10, 2010 - 4:28 pm
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Btw, if it is truly impossibly beyond the budgetary means of a parish to afford new liturgical books, the Church does not command the impossible. But that would only be after the parish actively sought donors, within and without, for funds for what it could not supply, rather than just being passive about it.
#32 by Rita Ferrone on February 10, 2010 - 11:13 pm
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Fr. Allen — you’re on! Drop me a line close to the time. I don’t know Fr. Seagraves, but it’s a small world. We probably know a dozen people in common. Finally, thanks for the recipe for Chatham Artillery Punch. I think this is the “regiment size” serving!
#33 by Tony Miller on February 11, 2010 - 3:32 pm
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I’m amused at how “conservative” progressives have become now that we’re moving forward with the reform of the reform.
#34 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 4:18 pm
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To all those of you who do not like the latinate style of the new translation: has it escaped your attention that we are Latin Catholics? – Latin has been the language of the Western Church for 1700 years; most theology worth reading (save for some of the mystics) was written in Latin, and the inexpressly beautiful music of our Western liturgies was composed to Latin texts. Latin was also, incidentally, the common language of academics, philosophers, scientists, jurists, in short the whole of Western civilization until a few decades ago(even in non-Catholic countries – now there’s an ecumenical language!). What then is so wrong about a translation of the Latin liturgy emulating this language as closely as possible?
If you find using the new translation intolerable, you can just use the original Latin – and then follow along with any translation you bloody well please in a hand-missal just like people used to.
Or attend Mass at the new Anglican Catholic ordinariates, should they materialize Deo volente…
#35 by Anthony Ruff, OSB on February 9, 2010 - 6:59 pm
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Gideon – I love the Latin language, I read and pray it every day, and I dearly wish I knew the language better. But the greatness of the Latin language has nothing to do with what constitutes a good vernacular translation. These are two different issues.
awr
#36 by Jan Larson on February 9, 2010 - 4:28 pm
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The new translations are indeed dreadful, and what is so sad is that they didn’t have to be that way. But the fundamental problem is Liturgiam Authenticam, the founding document for these translations. The founding document is filled with mistakes and assumptions. Liturgiam Authenticam (LA) is to liturgical texts what an English grammar book is to the English language. If the grammar book is faulty, then you can expect the spoken English language to be faulty and awkward. Peter Jeffrey of Princeton University, an expert in the history of Latin liturgical texts, points out in his thorough study of the document that LA is full of misstatements about the roman liturgical tradition: “Inaccuracies, misrepresentations and contradictions so abound in LA that anyone who tried to obey it religiously would find himself hopelessly mired in absurdities, demonstrating fidelity to Roman tradition by doing and saying things that are neither Roman or traditional.” The document was imposed, too, with little consultation: “It is particularly embarassing that all this muscular Christianity comes to us vested and mitred in the most ignorant statement on liturgy ever issued by a modern Vatican congregation.”
#37 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 4:34 pm
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“I can honestly say that I do not believe the new translation to be any more or less accurate than the current one”
Rev. Unterseher, that is just not a serious statement. Since you yourself mention it, let us look at one of the most central passages of the Mass. Are you seriously trying to tell us that
“When supper was ended, he took the cup.”
is a better translation (or even a reasonably correct one) of
“Simili modo postquam cœnatum est accipiens et hunc præclarum Calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus suas…”
than
“In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took this precious chalice into his holy and venerable hands…”
You don’t have to be a Latin scholar to tell that the below translation is a vast improvement over the first one – if the first can even be called a translation (if you handed in that kind of translation at university you’d be sure to get an F). Really, you don’t. I am not a Latin scholar by a far stretch. I’m pretty sure even a child could see that something was wrong with that first ‘translation’.
#38 by Cody C. Unterseher on February 9, 2010 - 7:32 pm
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On this point, I agree that overall the translation is better — as it is in some places throughout the Ordinary — though I will contest the use of the word chalice to render calix as being nether warranted by scripture nor by any Latin Dictionary (which, of the four or five I’ve checked, list chalice as a third or fourth option after “cup”). But see the “Quam oblationem” paragraph of the same Canon, or the opening lines of Eucharistic Prayer II, which make no fewer moves toward paraphrase than the currently used “translation.”
My point is that Liturgiam Authenticam calls for two things: faithful translation, and dignified vernacular. I fail to see how these have both been consistently met in the translation of MR3. I will be interested to see the collects: my impression is that they are more successful than the Ordinary (which is a shame because they are each heard less frequently); also, if they have been literally translated, they will have solved the question of vertical inclusive language: “Father” and its many variants in the collects of the current translation was a paraphrastic move on the part of the old ICEL, creating a problem that wasn’t there in the Latin.
#39 by Todd Flowerday on February 9, 2010 - 4:50 pm
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Gideon, this is exactly the point: this is not an academic exercise, but an artistic one. And that’s beside the point that Jesus likely didn’t use a “precious chalice” but an ordinary one, and that the Last Supper was not about honoring the physical hands of Jesus so much as the meaning of the Lord’s heritage, mandatum, and liturgy he celebrated with his followers. The language draws attention to itself in a way we would never tolerate as with the intrusion of performers.
And let’s stay on track here: nobody is defending RM1 as a virtue unto itself. The push here is for the best liturgy. An accurate liturgical text may be helpful for translating English or German into other languages. But it does not serve the needs of the current liturgy. Hence, an F for LA and its product, too.
#40 by Chris Owens on February 9, 2010 - 6:03 pm
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Todd–
I would invite you to consider the authentic translation as a vehicle of helping you to ask what makes the chalice precious– true it probably was an ordinary chalice– but it contained what became the blood of Christ: making it more precious than any other cup in history!
And why would the latin make mention of “his holy and venerable hands”? To, at this very moment in the Mass, connect the Last Supper with the Sacrifice on Calvary– the two historical events in the life of Christ that are in fact one, made present during Mass. His hands are holy and venerable because it’s precisely those hands which gained us our salvation– I can think of no other place where its MORE appropriate to talk about a precious chalice being held by holy and venerable hands.
Sorry to be contradictory– but this is exactly the point– the “artistic” aspect that you yourself speak of. The liturgy isn’t something to be manipulated, but to perfect over the centuries slowly by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Last, for all you dissenters in the “What if we just said ‘Wait’?” camp, I would ask this question:
If they had asked themselves this very question in 1969, we wouldn’t be having the problems today of trying to create a better translation– we would have had one from the beginning.
#41 by Todd Flowerday on February 9, 2010 - 7:31 pm
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Chris, thanks for engaging here.
I’m not totally unsympathetic to the three adjectives here. But there is an artistic principle at work: don’t tell when you can show. What is more important than the words is the artistry of how a priest communicates the chalice is precious (though Catholics are more used to that adjective when used with the Eucharistic species). Perhaps it is the Latin Eucharistic Prayers that need revision.
I’d be cautious about labelling all of “us dissenters,” as you seem to have done so above. We weren’t dissenters in the 70’s and 80’s when we longed for and advocated a new translation. That better translation, I’ll remind you, was reworked over seventeen years in the 80’s and 90’s, and finally approved by all the bishops. If it was all-fired important to have an improvement on 1969/1975, then why did we still have to use the poor on for the last twelve years?
The self-styled orthodox have made it a mission to criticize everything 1969, yet they still criticize a universally approved liturgical book. I don’t see how criticism of RM3 is “dissent.” Unless the word has been re-defined as “something conservatives don’t like.”
#42 by Chris Owens on February 9, 2010 - 8:20 pm
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Hey Todd,
I agree with what you say about the artistic principle at work– what springs to my mind immediately is the manner in which the rubrics of the EF direct the celebrant to rub their fingertips together over the chalice after the consecration of the host, and also how the celebrant from that point forward keeps his two fingers together in all actions.
With regard to the words of the liturgy, though, I must confess I find it difficult to see the “catholicity” of substantial variations in tranlations. It’s like if we took the same passage, translated in to both English and Japanese– in a side-along comparison between the English and Japanese, would you be able to recognize it as the same passage without having Latin be the intermediary?
And to classify myself, though I hate to do so, I would say I am in the middle– I love the EF, but think that the OF can be celebrated just as beautifully and reverently… although, there’s much more room for “diversity” in the manner in which it is celebrated, which is unfortunate.
#43 by Jordan Zarembo on February 9, 2010 - 8:20 pm
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Not everyone in the church needs to hear and understand prayers in order for Mass to be valid. The Holy Sacrifice is not presented to me as if the presence of our Lord needs my assent. Are some private Masses not valid because the priest went ahead with his Mass even though the server failed to show? There is no less glory and grace in that solitary Mass than a pontifical Mass.
Chris’s take on the simili modo is right on. Perhaps not every person can immediately understand the words “venerable” and “chalice”. Should profound theological truths receive emphasis for the sake of orthodoxy or even textual fidelity? Or, should the Mass be simplified to an imaginary horizon of accessibility while forsaking the nuances that enrich the Sacrifice? I vote for orthodoxy and fidelity to the Latin text. I’d prefer an hour of catechesis over “venerable” over the forty years of wild textual dissonance exhibited between the current English translation and the Latin typical texts.
We hear Mass to worship and adore the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. Why must Mass fall to the level of squabbling over words? Perhaps we should never have taken the silent Canon out of the modern liturgy. Then, at least, we are focused on meaning and intent and not on individual words.
#44 by Paulus on February 9, 2010 - 6:49 pm
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Karl Liam’s half-suggestions that the editors may be at fault in their handling of my posting are charitable. But the title, intended in the far vaguer sense I indicate in my comment above, is mine; and Fr Anthony and his team did much to moderate my first version, initially composed in white heat as a comment on Clare Johnson’s piece.
#45 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 8:42 pm
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Fr. ‘Paulus’, I thank you for your honesty. You have indeed correctly identified the risk of lapsing into ‘histrionic pseudo-prophecy’ and it is good that you are aware of this. However, no matter how much you dislike the new translation, please remember that by the grace of God we can do anything. Ask those Traditionalists who for decades kept up with abuses in the sacramental life of their parish that they considered deeply harmful to their faith, purely out of love for Our Lord and His Church. Remember Evelyn Waugh who in the last years of his life had to drag himself to church because he considered the liturgy which he had fallen in love with when he entered the Church to have been so deformed as to render it insufferable.
Change is always unsettling, especially when it happens in our spiritual lives and draws us out of our most precious comfort zone. But if one trusts God and trusts the Church, is the challenge of change not an opportunity for spiritual growth and for fostering a new commitment to Our Lord? I do write this in all charity, even if I don’t sympathize with your views at all. Trust the Lord, and trust that His Spirit guides His Church! Trust that God lets everything happen for the salvation and glorification of His Elect, and that “All manner of thing shall be well”. I will pray for you, that you may discern the will of the Lord with your ministry and your life.
#46 by Karl Liam Saur on February 9, 2010 - 9:04 pm
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Again, many thanks for the clarification. I withdraw any potential barb at the editors.
#47 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 7:45 pm
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Jesus likely didn’t use a “precious chalice” but an ordinary one
I can’t begin to count how many times I have heard this assertion being made despite the fact that it is supported by not the tiniest fragment of even circumstantial evidence!
Quite the contrary in fact.
The argument typically goes something like “well, Jesus was poor, so He couldn’t have afforded blah blah.” Now Our Lord was indeed not wealthy but that is irrelevant in this context. He and His disciples were given the ‘Upper Room’ to celebrate the Passover in for free. Since it was a room of a considerable size which no-one was apparently using to live in, it is reasonable to presume that it was the dining room of a large town-house rather than a squalid slum-dwelling. Such a house would also have contained plates and cups for the meal, and not of the cheapest sort.
There is an ancient tradition that a chalice in the Cathedral of Valencia which incorporates a delicate cup carved out of polished agate is the cup that Our Lord used at the Last Supper. There have been reports that the agate may well have originated from the Levant in the 1st century. It is not made of precious metal, but would nonetheless have been quite expensive in that day. The tradition also says that this chalice was originally in Rome, having been brought there by St. Peter. Add to this that unlike all other ancient anaphoras, the institution words of the Roman Canon read “He took this precious chalice”, and the plot thickens… Maybe one reads too much into these things, but it does nevertheless show that the idea that Our Lord would use something ordinary for such an event as the institution of His perpetual memorial is something altogether new and quite unsupported by earlier sources.
#48 by Gideon Ertner on February 9, 2010 - 8:01 pm
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“The push here is for the best liturgy.”
But should the perfect be the enemy of the good?
And anyway I still have not got a response to what is wrong with a latinate English liturgy in the Latin Church. So what if it is not good English? The measure of the Latin liturgy is not English but Latin. I find it an eminently reasonable principle that since Latin is the mother tongue of the Western Church, the more a translation conforms to the Latin the better. From the point of view of the 1,750 years of the history of the Western Church, the English language is as an irrelevant thing to be concerned about as can come.
Besides, let us not forget that Vatican II never mandated whole liturgies in the vernacular – indeed quite the contrary; it only envisaged a limited role for it, probably principally for the readings. Wanting the whole liturgy in the vernacular is in fact a clear and obvious contradiction of Vatican II.
#49 by Cody C. Unterseher on February 9, 2010 - 9:11 pm
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First thought: All of this rather puts me in mind of that delightful Scholastic aphorism, sacramenta sunt propter homines — the sacraments [sacramental liturgy] are for people.
Somewhat related second thought: Whether or not vernacular translations of the Latin Rite liturgy conform to the forms of its parent language, said translations must also convey the meaning expressed in that parent tongue. That moves beyond merely stringing formally equivalent translations of words together: it demands a mastery of the vernacular’s rules of grammar, syntax and style.
It remains debated whether or not any vernacular translation of the Latin Rite liturgy is pastorally appropriate, “for people” as it were. I think it rather pitiable that such a question is even raised, particularly in light of the experience of the Eastern churches that are able to both acknowledge their linguistic heritages and produce excellent translations (and without either internecine squabbling or the convoluted process of gaining approval from a central authority). My own experience with Roman Catholic clergy and laity alike suggests that vernacular liturgy is both desirable and pastorally necessary. Sadly, a translation that is both faithful to the meaning of the original and rendered in proper English — a truly pastoral translation — does not seem forthcoming.
And while I rejoice in my own church’s good fortune to have 500 years of refined vernacular liturgical heritage under its belt, I am in sympathy with my Roman Catholic sisters and brothers who are finding the present state of affairs bewildering and alienating.
#50 by Todd Flowerday on February 9, 2010 - 9:46 pm
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“So what if it is not good English?”
Because the liturgy, aside from participating in Christ’s worship of the Father in the Holy Spirit, is about the sanctification of the faithful. This sanctification, this grace, occurs when, as Jesus did, the laity are the focus of the service of liturgical ministers. Not seen as obstacles or inconvenient observers to mysteries beyond them.
English has roots in Norman French, of course. But English is not a Romance language in terms of grammar, and not in the majority of its vocabulary. Are Roman Catholics defined by language, a human construct? Or by faith and grace, a divine substrate? Which is timeless: God or a dead language of European aristocrats?
Having the best possible vernacular translation should be at the forefront of Rome and the bishops. Why? Because as Catholics we’re still charged by Matthew 28. When language becomes an obstacle, especially in countries in which English is a second language, then we’ve placed liturgy on the pedestal, and knocked off God. The Sabbath was made for us mortal beings, remember, as Jesus advised.
#51 by Rev. Bryan J.B. Pedersen on February 9, 2010 - 10:54 pm
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Paulus,
Would you be willing to give your age and date of ordination? Second, have you used the current translation during your priesthood without altering the texts either by addition or subtraction save in those cases where the rubrics allow for these or similar words? For example have you ever composed your own collects, or have you developed any idiosyncratic phrases that you habitually use in the liturgy? Third, in your opinion is the problem merely the new translation or do you believe that the Roman Missal itself in it’s original language is still badly in need of serious reform? Fourth, do you believe that Sacrosanctum Concilium itself did not go far enough, or should it still be considered the primary reference point for Liturgical Reform? Fifth, were you personally involved in MR1 or the proposed MR2? Since you have written anonymously I ask for your complete candor.
#52 by Rev. Bryan J.B. Pedersen on February 9, 2010 - 11:08 pm
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Rita,
In my parish our hymnals are in sad shape and need to be replaced, the same is true of the current sacramentary. I will be excited when we are finally able to buy new books and we will budget accordingly. We will be looking for higher quality than currently comes from the two main publishers of liturgical texts. My parish will also be celebrating its centennial in 2011, and we are looking forward to commissioning a new Mass Setting for the ordinary parts of the Mass. When the recognitio is granted for the entire Missal and a promulgation date is set I can’t wait to practice with my congregation. When it is implemented and the people say and also with you, uh spirit, we will laugh and try again, and this too shall pass.
#53 by Ioannes Andreades on February 10, 2010 - 1:40 am
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Postquam sententias a vobis omnibus expressas perlegi, institui iterum scrutari Partes Ordinis Missae Primi (codicem “album”), sperans me aliquid invenusti vel obscuri inventurum. Hic illic verba et collocationes infelices inveni sed paucas tantum (e.g. lead us, with our sins forgiven, to eternal life). Maximam vero partem preces et orationes e Latino in Anglicum sermonem conversas admodum aptas idoneasque atque imprimis fideles aestimo. Sine dubio meliorationes in omni apparent folio. Quarum profero hoc exemplum e prece Eucharistica tertia excerptum: “Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you: by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought to you for consecration.” Quae translatio fideliter vim et significationes in Latino expressas comprehendit, nec vero servilis haberi propter ordinem verborum potest. At nobis non solum significationes comprehendit verum etiam effectum vocum “supplices” et “deprecamur” communicat. Quamquam translationes hodiernae per disciplinam “dynamic equivalance” appellatam factae esse feruntur, verum longe abest. Voces “supplices” et “deprecamur” efficiunt ut nos audientes humilem nostrum locum coram Maiestate Divina dilucide cernamus atque agnoscamus. Harum effectus vocum etiam per translationem creandus est idem, quo necessario officio translatio hodierna nostra male fungitur.
#54 by Paul Inwood on February 10, 2010 - 3:17 am
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Ioannes: “for consecration” is not the best translation of sacranda. “Chalice” is certainly an inaccurate translation of calix, which refers to the form of the drinking vessel – i.e. one with a stem. There is in fact a perfectly good English word, “goblet”, which was considered undesirable because they thought it would make people think of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc. If one accepts that objection as valid, using the word “cup” would have been a better choice. It is used in the second of the three memorial acclamations, so why not in the institution narrative itself? “Chalice” was actually imposed, we are told, by Vox Clara, not by ICEL.
Having said that, what we are concerned with here is both the accuracy of the translation and the linguistic quality of it. The point has been made over and over again that it’s not just about one of these but both together. Your post above has still not acknowledged the second of these.
We all agree that often (but not always, as I have just demonstrated) the new translation is an improvement on the old in terms of accuracy. What we require now is a quality of language which will convey that newly-rediscovered accuracy without distracting people through its awkwardness. The 1998 ICEL translation did both of these things.
#55 by Ioannes Andreades on February 10, 2010 - 9:32 am
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I disagree about both of your contentions. “For consecration” conveys the gerundive “sacranda” perfectly well. I would have preferred goblet perhaps, but there is baggage. Calix in Latin, however, is not just any cup. Time and time again one finds it used specifically as a wine cup in Latin (check your L&S or OLD). I believe that chalice is a superior translation to cup (the generic poculum). Calix (like chalice) is not the unmarked lexeme whereas poculum (like cup) is.
My post did acknowledge the second concern, that of quality. I find the “with our sins forgiven” unnecessarily unwieldy, but such instances of poor quality seem quite infrequent and hardly pervasive. I have been told that the collects and postcommunions are rather inelegant, but I have not seen anything but isolated examples that are adduced to support various viewpoints. Since these have not been made available I don’t know how widespread the problem is.
What I believe has not been adequately admited by those who are against the new translation is how much better the new translations refelect the register/social dialect of the original Latin. Politeness is a powerful force linguistically, and the politeness and deference of the original Latin is not captured AT ALL in the current translations. Is English-speaking culture so barbaric that such politeness markers as “quaesumus” did not need to be translated? It seems to me that it is this sort of concern that comporomises the current translations according to a dynamic equivalence standard.
I have never seen the 1998 translations and cannot comment.
#56 by Karl Liam Saur on February 10, 2010 - 10:08 am
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One of the problems with the 1998 translations is that they tried to do too much. The goal of beauty and musicality was also accompanied by other goals that tripped up the project. For example, in the 1990s, there was a goal of increasing the use of inclusive language. Now, that exceeded even dynamic translation principles in the sense that, while usage was changing in certain circles (for example, academic and professional circles), it would not be accurate to say that a thorough-going inclusive usage as used in such circles (or is even yet – I still encounter non-inclusive usage not only on the street (by women and men) but even in such dens of progressivism as PBS and other supposedly liberal media) the language of everyday use among the dominant sector of English-speaking people on the street, as it were. In other words, inclusive usage was being proposed prescriptively, rather than descriptively (as a reflection that the language had in fact pervasively shifted). As someone who was an ardent promoter of inclusive usage in that period*, I suspect that was an Achilles’ heel of the project.
* I still welcome it, but have modulated my view that you cannot use the liturgical vernacular to get ahead of pervasive usage, and that the liturgical vernacular will generally lag even pervasive usage by at least a couple of generations or more.
#57 by Bill Dilworth on February 10, 2010 - 12:30 pm
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“Time and time again one finds it used specifically as a wine cup in Latin”
Which, of course, is not really what it means in English, at least to most speakers. If someone told me that there was a chalice on the dinner table I would expect to find something much different than the sort of vessel that wine is ordinarily served in.
#58 by Todd Flowerday on February 10, 2010 - 12:34 pm
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“Calix in Latin, however, is not just any cup.”
True. And this is why liturgy can and must convey more than just the written word on the page. “Cup” is a more accurate translation than “chalice,” but the gravity of this particular cup must be communicated in the gestures and reverence of the presider.
I wonder how much the issue of “good manners” when dealing with superiors is part of a European aristocratic remnant. Because the Judeo-Christian tradition in both Bible and saints is filled with audacious human interaction with God. Some progressives have been criticized for minimizing the God of judgment and anger, and yet I don’t see a desire for a recovery of Abram bargaining with God over Sodom, or the intimate rebukes of Jeremiah, or even the saucy retort of a Teresa of Avila.
So, yes, there are time when being polite with God is important. But it’s not the only way we pray. The lack of variety, of catholicity if you will, in the Latin texts would be another example of the limitation of the Missale Romanum.
#59 by Paulus on February 10, 2010 - 5:32 am
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To Bryan’s questions.
Factually: I am in my mid-fifties, and was ordained in the mid-eighties. I was not involved in either MR1 or MR2.
The terms of your other questions are tendentious. I regard Vatican II as normative; though we probably differ on what that amounts to.
There are a number of substantial reforms in the Roman Missal itself which I would personally like to see, but on which I would never move forward unilaterally.
As far as the translation is concerned, I believe that what we needed at this stage was a refinement of MR1, applying broadly the same policy of translation but in the light of the experience we’ve gained in forty years. It should have grown ‘organically’ (weasel word, I know, but it can be useful) from MR1 (in other words, don’t change MR1, especially not in the people’s parts, unless the need is clear and manifest). Ecumenical considerations should have been borne in mind; and there was surely some place for free composition in vernaculars ‘organically’ growing from the Latin original. I don’t think that the distinction between formal and dynamic equivalence is a helpful one; there are judgment calls to be made at every turn regarding what counts as ‘fidelity to the original’, which will lead a good translator sometimes very close to the linguistic form of the original and sometimes to reproduce the original with a linguistically very different idiom. MR1 knew that perfectly well; but ‘dynamic equivalence’ is now being used as a smear term to denounce any sensible departure from the literal. I suspect my ideal result would be close to MR2–though some work I’ve done on the collects has convinced me that that version too was in serious need of improvement. But we did not need Liturgiam allegedly authenticam.
#60 by Gideon Ertner on February 10, 2010 - 2:57 pm
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Father, for someone like me who has not had more than a cursory look at LA and who doesn’t understand your objections to it, perhaps you would like to provide a more thorough critique of that document?
#61 by Paulus on February 11, 2010 - 5:27 am
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I might need a day or two for this, given my schedule at the moment. But I will try to get to it.
#62 by Karl Liam Saur on February 10, 2010 - 3:42 pm
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Rita,
When else has the Church (local and universal) factored in economic timeliness for promulgating new editions of its liturgical books? That was the point of my example. The 1970s (in the US, starting with a recession in 1970) were tough times, and a long tough time at that. Yet we had a procession of new liturgical books. Was that wrong? Should the implementation of Vatican II been delayed to, say, the late 1980s after several years of prosperity under the belt?
Maybe you would argue that. But I am not seeing that in your argument. What I am seeing is a tactical use of current economical (and church fiscal) conditions as a delaying tactic. And the credibility of that argument would be enhanced if were so neutral as to apply and produce a result that you might not favor.
PS: I am familiar with the wrangling over the 1998 translation. I don’t carry a torch for either side. What I can say is that resentments about it, however understandable, burden those who still carry them, and they have a choice about whether to nurse them or let them go, how ever justly acquired.
#63 by Rita Ferrone on February 10, 2010 - 11:49 pm
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Karl Liam,
You don’t seem to get it. I am opposed to the proposed translation on its merits. I’ve said as much. It’s in my published work as well as my blog entries. What I am doing now is a time-honored exercise in Catholic moral reasoning: if you cannot avert a bad outcome, you can at least seek to limit the damage it causes. One of the ill effects of this move is that it will fall most heavily on people who can least afford it. Has anything been done about this? No.
It’s laughable to say the church was in a worse economic situation in the 1970s than it is today. How many dioceses were going bankrupt then? None. Today, multiple dioceses. St. John’s, Newfoundland Canada, sold all of its property to pay for lawsuits. All of it. Such things have never happened before in my lifetime. I live in the Archdiocese of New York. It has not been as hard hit as many. Nevertheless, the administration was cut by 50% a few years ago. Schools have closed. Hospitals have closed. Just this week, St. Vincent’s has gone on the block. The archdiocese recently handed over Cardinal Hayes high school in the South Bronx, a mainstay of the poor; it no longer belongs to them. I go to a poor parish. We used to receive a subsidy. No more. It was eliminated last year. I used to work in the Diocese of Allentown. Half of their parishes have been closed. Unless you are convinced that the new translations will bring in people waving checkbooks, you have to imagine that the resources for doing this will come out of the shrinking pool of general funds. I think this has to be looked at with some concern.
#64 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 11, 2010 - 5:28 am
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Dear Rita,
I think it is legitimate not to favor one translation over another as it concerns personal tastes. But personal tastes must take a back seat to officially promulgated translations. Pastorally speaking, it would be foolish for a priest who loves Latin to decide that every time he celebrates the Mass wherever he is assigned that he will celebrate only the Universal, Ordinary, Typical Edition of the Roman Missal of 2002 which of course is the Latin Roman Missal. This Missal has languished in Latin only for over eight years now, yet to be translated into English because there are too many chefs and not enough cooks to make a good translation occur any time sooner. This priest may prefer the Latin, but eventually he is going to have to accept the new English, like it or not, and “sell” it to his congregation. I would say that it is incumbent for anyone in any official position of the church, paid or volunteer, to acknowledge this and, well, just be Catholic in this regard, be obedient. We have to accept some common practices once “promulgated.”
On the last point about bankruptcy and the like. Prior to the scandal, law suits and tremendous payouts, there was already a very serious decline in Mass attendance and the practice of the Faith. In the 1950’s, almost 90% of Catholics in this country attended Mass on Sunday. Today, in the northeast (the southeast is a bit better), we are lucky if 20 to 25 % attend Mass. That’s a rather dramatic decline and I can’t help make connections between EF and OF Masses and the sloppy, disrespectful of the Lord and the people, celebrations of the OF Mass that has led to such a decline, the loss of reverence, beauty of language and respect for rubrics. To deny this loss of active participation and not name the culprits is to bury one’s head in the sand. The scandal is related to the lack of oversight both of clergy and the liturgy by the bishops. They allowed it to happen and on their watch. If they had only followed canon law, pre-1983 as well as post 1983, they would have handled abusive priests appropriately and I suspect, they would have been more pastoral to those abused. But the point is, they did not provide proper oversight or even common sense in the manner in which they supervised and transferred these priests. The same can be said for the state of the Liturgy today. Follow the rubrics, address abusive situations and correct what is not good. Certainly the new translation is a move in the right direction, although not everyone will like everything about the new translation. Who ever does like everything anyway. Shouldn’t we cooperate when our Church finally does promulgate something?
#65 by Karl Liam Saur on February 11, 2010 - 6:50 am
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I get you now. I didn’t say, btw, the Church was in *worse* economic times in the 1970s, but they were a long tough time of declining school enrollment and exodus from Catholic urban and inner suburban parishes, lots of belt tighening and what not.
But your argument does not persuade as a collateral argument.
#66 by Todd Flowerday on February 11, 2010 - 9:21 am
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“That’s a rather dramatic decline and I can’t help make connections between EF and OF Masses …”
This is about the weakest argument to appear on this thread. Considering the end of ethnic parishes, the advent of tv, the suburbs, the automobile, the upwardly mobile society, and upheavals in how we looked at sex, authority, informality, and the like, I’m still amazed people have the guts to trot out the argument that switching from the Latin Low Mass was so traumatic it affected Eastern Orthodoxy, the Anglicans, and Reformation Christianity, no matter how much or how little they reformed their own liturgies.
#67 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 11, 2010 - 10:13 am
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Todd, firstly, I don’t know how old you are or what experiences you have had in the Church or your qualifications as a historian or a sociologist, let alone a psychologist. Then secondly, your misrepresentation of my remarks about the EF and the OF are astounding.
I was speaking of the reverence that the clergy and the laity alike had for the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the type of devotion to our Lord that this entailed. In pre-Vatican II times, it would have been unheard of for any Catholic of good faith to criticize the Mass or in any way be in favor of a reduced piety and reverence toward our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Yes, this was tied into the spirituality of the EF Mass, low, high solemn high, well done or poorly done. And in the case of a poorly done Mass, ex-opere, operato kicked in and at least you were able to be at the renewal of the sacrifice and receive our Lord in Holy Communion. Language played a part, but also spirituality, belief (faith) and profound respect for the Church and her liturgy in other words, reverence and a profound “sense of the sacred!”
Now, somewhere between 1968 and 1979, a loss of the sense of the sacred did occur in the lives of many priests, religious, and laity and the manner in which the Mass was actually celebrated and churches renovated. This can be proven both from the perspective of sociology, psychology and history. In fact there were books and article written about the Liturgy at this time and the loss of the sense of the sacred that was occurring from in and outside of the Church as you have highlighted with the other details you mention–it was part of a much bigger phenomenon to say the least and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see and read about that.
That a significant number of Catholics now absent themselves from Sunday Mass, almost 80% in some places must be examined. The role of the loss of the sense of the sacred as it pertains to their desire to be at Mass, which is intimately tied to the role of faith in one’s life, which is a gift from God, is not too difficult to ascertain.
I am not a practicing sociologist, but I am a priest and I have heard testimonies of many who have experienced poor celebrations of the OF Mass, (not here in Macon, by the way) and I would lose my faith if I had to endure these celebrations on a regular basis, save for ex-opere, operato, my personal faith, which is a gift, and the sense of the sacred that I have that leads me to a profound reverence for all things holy, especially our Lord’s sacrifice and Real Presence at Mass validly celebrated either EF or OF.
And by the way, my BA was in sociology!
#68 by Todd Flowerday on February 11, 2010 - 10:43 am
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Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.
My sense would be to place a modern loss of the sense of the sacred to begin around the post-WWII period in the US, and maybe decades before in Europe. The erosion of respect for authority seemed to really pick up steam as the wars piled up in Europe. People realized their monarchs and aristocracy were sinfully disconnected from the suffering and trauma their alliances and the developing technology of warcraft landed them in one unjust war after another. And where was the Church in all this? It’s a work of the Holy Spirit that Europe wasn’t de-Christianized generations ago.
You’ve missed the advent of utilitarian church architecture by at least a generation.
Declining Mass attendance is a reality, and has many, many causes. One reason why it persists is the lack of an evangelical mindset and pastoral creativity by both clergy and laity. You may be able to point to your parish, and demonstrate your ability to lasso inactive Catholics back to the Mass, and better, having inspired your parishioners to evangelize, too. So where are you sitting in your parish? 40% or better?
The students and university folks we try to evangelize have a lot more concerns than the fussiness with which we conduct our liturgy. We do it largely the same as we always have: avoiding the worst of the post-conciliar nonsense, but also realizing that old wineskins are woefully inadequate for the challenges of the age.
#69 by Rev. Bryan J.B. Pedersen on February 10, 2010 - 6:23 pm
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Paulus,
Since you do consider VII SC normative, the purpose of my second question was to guage how credible your critique is. In my view, if you were able to answer yes to my second question based on SC 22.3. (Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority) then I believe your credibility in offering a critique would be higher. I know some priests who because they do not like certain aspects of the current translations who change words of the Mass to make it more exact. Others, I have known who bring their own idiosyncrasies of language. For example one priest always would replace “anxieties” from the embolism with “needless worries.” Another priest I know always uses “For Many” instead of “For All” so it cuts both ways. A priest who follows the fundamental principal enunciated in SC 22.3 has more credibility in my opinion. So in asking you about what you term to be “tendentious” I was attempting to guage at least one measure of integrity. I still would appreciate an answer.
#70 by Paulus on February 11, 2010 - 5:26 am
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On this criterion, as on so many others, I am clearly wanting. But it begs many questions to reduce ‘Vatican II’ to SC 22.3. Moreover, the use of “proprio marte” suggests that another translation might be possible: ‘out of his own aggression’. Perhaps the Tanner translation, ‘disruptively add, remove or change anything in the liturgy on his or her own’, has something to be said for it.
#71 by Jeffery BeBeau on February 10, 2010 - 7:49 pm
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The tenor of the comments regarding the new translation, as well as comments relating to the 1998 translation have prompted me to think about things. I have been so fed up with the quality of the current translation I have uncritically embraced the draft translation. The comments here have also got me thinking about good/elegant English and what that is supposed to mean. I think I will be digging out my copy of the 1998 Sacramentary and the booklets of the draft translation and compare them to see if I can come to a better understanding about this entire thing.
#72 by Todd Flowerday on February 10, 2010 - 7:52 pm
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Fr Bryan, since this is a public discussion, I’ll insert myself in here.
I’ve never known a priest to score a 100% on liturgical accuracy, and if I were as inclined as you seem to be an inquisitor, I can think of at least a dozen questions I’d ply to you. Especially if my goal were to discredit you as a questioner. Such a goal would be out of sync with CCC 2478, however. Integrity is a presumption we should all consider, unless clear evidence is given otherwise.
As an observer, I found your query to be offensive and unworthy of a serious discussion. The Scriptures take note of the reality that we all have sinned and fallen short of virtue. John 8:7 might be illustrative here.
#73 by Anthony Ruff, OSB on February 11, 2010 - 10:27 am
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Fr. Allan, I don’t think the discussion between you and Todd involves history or sociology or psychology at root. The issue is logic. Two things happened – what you call the loss of the sacred, and a decline in Mass attendance. Any causality in any direction is not proven by simultaneity.
awr
#74 by Karl Liam Saur on February 11, 2010 - 11:19 am
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In addition to the “post hoc ergo propter hoc” logical issue, there assumptions and beliefs, for example about what a sense of the sacred looks like and does not look like, and the quality of it before and after, and whether other vairable are or are not being considered.
#75 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 11, 2010 - 1:35 pm
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Karl, you are correct, but we are speaking about Roman Catholics, today, who are alive and kicking, not those who are dead and gone from a by-gone era, nearly 80% of them who do not attend Mass on any regular basis in 2010. Would it be too much to ask the Pew Survey or some other polling group to identify this group, interview them through a survey and discuss their Catholic family history, i.e. pre-Vatican II verses post Vatican II and what transpired in their family in those intervening years, good or bad–but we’re interviewing those who are now alive and no longer practice their faith–they are out there, they are not phantoms. And the focus should not be on moral teachings that they disagree with, but their personal faith in the doctrine of the Mass–an encounter with God, the renewal of the Sacrifice of Christ in an “unbloody” way and the real presence of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Just precisely what does “reverence” in 2010 look like amongst them and amongst practicing Catholics who believe the doctrines concerning Mass–this can and should be studied and shared with the Church. I’d love to see the results!
#76 by Fr. Allan McDonald on February 11, 2010 - 2:14 pm
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Dear Fr. Anthony,
In 1999, I wrote an article for our Diocesan Newspaper that I have since placed on my personal blog. In it I quoted Archbishop Rembert Weakland and his concern about the direction some progressives were taking the Mass and that this direction was “diminishing” faith in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. This all appeared in a 1999 article in America Magazine and it juxtaposed Weakland’s concerns with those of then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I paste a short paragraph I wrote from that article on what Archbishop Weakland wrote in that America article:
At the opposite extreme, to those who want to continue with the direction of the current reform and go much further, Archbishop Weakland challenges the theology that has caused our Liturgy to drift “into a more horizontal and purely human activity.” He then asks the most startling question of this group: “Has the reform at times led to a diminution of respect for and belief in the real presence in the Eucharist?” He goes on to ask this disturbing question: “In seeking to make the liturgical symbols more true and clear, has the renewal made the symbol more important than what is symbolized?” He notes the use of “real bread” where “ministers” become sloppy about the crumbs and thus diminish belief in the real presence. He asks, “Has the kiss of peace ceased to be a symbolic gesture of reconciliation with one’s neighbor and become a moment for greeting everyone in the church—to the detriment of the symbol and breaking the liturgical moment of preparation for Holy Communion? In the desire to emphasize the nature of the community, has one introduced rites of dubious origin, e.g., holding hands?”
I don’t recall which edition of the 1999 America Magazine this article appeared, but I guess you could Google it.
My full article from 1999 can be found on my blog site at the following link:
http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2009/11/from-1999-am-i-prophet.html
#77 by Rita Ferrone on February 11, 2010 - 1:40 pm
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Dear Fr. Allan,
I understand what you are saying. Let me make clear that I am not counseling disobedience. But I return to Fr. Paulus’s remark in the original post, which I believe has merit: “Authority is not supposed to be a brick wall.” The outcry against the new translation is not coming from a handful of malcontents, but from some very committed and thoughtful and intelligent people. It is part of the process that needs to take place as the Church listens for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Over and over again, we hear people say of the new translation “This is inevitable, this is inevitable, this is inevitable.” Often this is said along with an agreement that it is not good in itself. But if it’s not good, why is it inevitable? We are treating the work of a Roman congregation as though it were an act of nature, a storm, a tidal wave; it’s not. Proper respect for authority can never demand dishonesty, because such an outcome violates the conscience.
Let me also say something inspired by Pope John Paul II’s post-synodal exhortation “On Reconciliation and Penance in the Mission of the Church Today.” If many consciences are violated, the cumulative effect becomes a situation of social sin. He cautions us not to be among those who “take refuge in the supposed impossibility of changing the world” or “those who side-step the effort and sacrifice required” (no. 16). This is what I hear when I read Fr. Paulus’s call for “holy resistance” while others seem to read there nothing but willful disobedience.
Having said this, let me also say that I appreciate what you are saying about having humility, accepting imperfect situations, and bearing with one another in faith and charity.
Now, I think I have said QUITE enough! Thanks for a good discussion, everybody.
#78 by Tony Miller on February 11, 2010 - 3:12 pm
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“Editor’s note: The following essay does not necessarily reflect the views of Pray Tell or its sponsors. It is posted because we think that it will be important, for the successful implementation of the new missal, to take account of the feelings of all members of the church.”
Where was this particular sensitivity when Vatican II and the Novus Ordo was implemented?
#79 by Tony Miller on February 11, 2010 - 4:12 pm
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Todd Flowerday said:
“Fr McDonald, it has never been proven that there has been a drop-off in reverence for the Real Presence. Count me as a big doubter on the notion of exceptionalism, that any generation past or present is superior overall to any other.”
Todd, all I can go by is my own experience from the time I knelt before the altar rail and received the Body of Christ on my tongue from the hands of Christ Himself, in the accidents of the priest, and witnessing the “one handed grab” of the host by someone with a child in their arms or the “walk and dunk” of someone self intincting. This indicates to me a serious loss of reverence for our Lord present real and in the flesh.
We are physical creatures and we are affected by our posture.